who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

"Science has already proved it. There is no honest scientist in the WORLD who will pinpoint the beginning of human life at any place other than conception."

I have not taken a poll of all "honest" scientists, so I can't comment on the accuracy of that particular statement. But I can say, in general, that "science" can never "prove" when life begins. "Science" can do no more than establish certain facts.

Uh, yeah, the facts it establishes are what elements of a human life are present at a particular time.

But science cannot "prove" that this constitutes "life." This question is, and always will be, a matter of conscience, not science.

This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Since when does one person's conscience determine whether another person is alive?

If I truly, in my deepest moments of introspection, believe that a child under the age of 2 years is not alive because he cannot communicate properly with me, does that make him not alive? No, it makes me WRONG.

"The real argument is not about the presence of human life, but rather about the value of that life."

Naturally, we disagree on this as well. The real argument is about who gets to decide the proper course of action in a given situation.

That decision only applies when one life is not taking another.

Or does the individual who faces all the consequences have the control over their own lives and bodies.

My very favorite bumper sticker says, quite simply:

The baby is NOT your body

[green 6]

Once again, I must express to you, L8, how very much I very moved I was upon reading your account of your first pregnancy. I am also moved by your story, BJean.

It seems to me that we are all women who grew up in the same era, one which was transitional with respect to attitudes towards women. We started out living our junior lives in the Eisenhauer '50s, a time when women were expected to live entirely different lives from men.

By the age of 20 I was already at university, had lost my virginity, had a regular boyfriend (subsequently my husband), and I was on the pill. I was very careful about birth control because I knew that I never, ever wanted to have a child but I have a hunch that an abortion was still difficult to obtain in Canada at that time. I suspect that at the time I figured that I would arrange to have an abortion in one of the European countries where it was legal should the Pill fail. This is a solution which is available only to those grrls who can afford it, of course.

Even should abortion be recriminalized, grrls who can afford safe abortions will always be able to get them. When you remove the right to choose you are removing this option only from those who are strapped for cash. It might be argued that this would be legislation which penalizes the working class and the lower middle class as well as the poor. The rest of us will skip around it if we feel that an abortion is the only way we can go on with our lives.

@ BJean: when Green was first married the two magazines to which the young couple had subscriptions were Ms. Magazine and Model Rail Roader. :eek:

[L8BloomR 1]

I generally don't have a lot of regrets. I've learned something each and every mistake along the way. But having a child that you have no possible way of taking care of is just plain stupid. I regret having been that stupid. Having children is so much more important than I understood at the time. If I had not married so young, been incredibly unhappy and in pain, had to face the Viet Nam war up close and personal, and made the decision (quite stupidly and naively) to have a child when I had no business having one (by the way, I made that decision along with my husband at the time - God didn't decide it for us), I would have been able to prevent my son from having to endure not living with his two biological parents, watching his mother barely make ends meet, struggle to grow up while under scrutiny for having a single parent when it was extremely looked down on, learning that he was adopted, struggling to understand his conflicted feelings about his fathers, and the list goes on. He is an adult now and still has some conflicted feelings about all this. If I had been a smarter girl, I could have prevented all of that (and more) for him. He deserved better, as all children do. Anyway, thanks for asking and for trying to understand someone like me.

In fact, I still remember when Ms. magazine was first published, I don't remember the date but sometime in the early or mid-1970's. It was absolutely shocking that they published a list of women who had decided to "come out" and admit that they had had an abortion. The list was amazing - so many famous and respected women were on that list. It opened a dialogue among women at the time about the pros and cons of abortions. It sure made me stop and think after meeting both women who had done it and women who had opted not to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, and I decided real quick that I should never, ever, tell another woman what she MUST do in the event of an unwanted pregnancy. That is not the kind of world I want to live in again.

I remember when that magazine came out too! And yes, the stories of women enduring unwanted pregnancies and those having back-alley abortions were heartbreaking. Hearing so much about that made me unsure about the issue: I knew how tough it was to be pregnant when I didn't want to, yet I was happy that I went through with my pregnancy and saw the value in that. But remember that back then, abortion was only legal in the first trimester, and then it got pushed to the second trimester... then it became "on demand", whenever..... and coupled with what I saw as total lack of responsible sexual behavior---using no birth control along with promiscuous and careless sex---I started to feel queasy about the whole issue. It has only gotten worse in my opinion. No longer is abortion just about helping out a desperate or abused girl. It has become about convenience. I absolutely know many, many girls/women who have abortions as a form of birth control, some because they were too lazy to use preventative measures and some because they "just don't like the feel of condoms". A very close friend of mine had 4 abortions in her 30's because of those reasons, and now regrets them terribly. So what is the answer? I would hate to be the one to tell someone in despair that they had to go through with their pregnancy; but I would want to really stress their other options as well as the potential happiness a child could bring them. It is so easy for someone in need to see only problems. But so often problems look insurmountable at first and then become smaller or disappear as we tackle them. I don't believe enough emphasis is placed on the advantages to our lives and our souls when we accept the consequences of our actions and deal with them, instead of trying to get rid of them.

I do understand your feelings about your son's upbringing. But remember that adversity can help shape us. Your son saw you doing the right thing. He saw you come through problems and succeed....how you faced things head-on, dealt with them, and continued to be his loving Mom. You gave him wonderful, good stuff along with the tough stuff. He would have some conflicted feelings no matter what simply because he is human. My sons have unpleasant memories of the rough times my DH and I went through.... and I certainly have horrible conflicted feelings about my own parents, especially with the alcoholism. No one escapes tough times, now matter how poor or rich, how settled or unsettled their lives are. I am still happy to be here, and so are my kids. I'm sure yours are too. I think you did the right thing and I am impressed by the smart, open, caring person you appear to be....:eek:

[L8BloomR 1]

Once again, I must express to you, L8, how very much I very moved I was upon reading your account of your first pregnancy. I am also moved by your story, BJean.

Even should abortion be recriminalized, grrls who can afford safe abortions will always be able to get them. When you remove the right to choose you are removing this option only from those who are strapped for cash. It might be argued that this would be legislation which penalizes the working class and the lower middle class as well as the poor. The rest of us will skip around it if we feel that an abortion is the only way we can go on with our lives.

Thank you Green for your understanding post. I found one point especially interesting: that the people with money will always have access to abortions no matter what. You are right, of course. But did you know that Margaret Sangor, the founder of what is now Planned Parenthood, fought for birth control as a way to limit the amount of black babies being born?? In fact, according to her own writings, she said things like, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated." She even addressed the Ku Klux Klan! This fact is always conveniently left out of any mention of her today, but it puts another interesting spin on the abortion issue, I think.

[green 6]

Although I am pro-choice I am also repelled by those individuals who repeatedly use abortion as a birth control method. I am a rather tidy and organized individual by temperament and thus I find it almost impossible to relate to those women who persist in getting themselves into the same difficulties, whether it be getting themselves lumbered with unwanted pregnancies or tied up with abusive men or whatever, over and over again. I am one of those individuals who tries to make a point of learning from her own disasters and I do have a tendency to be harsh towards those women who are unable to get their lives under control. Nicer and more generous women have called me up on my judgemental attitude towards these individuals, individuals whom I see as being just plain careless. Perhaps these kind women are right and I am wrong. Certainly I find it easy to imagine a girl or a woman hard up against it by virtue of one unwanted pregnancy but I do find this business of repeated unwanted pregnancies to be a messed up state of affairs, whether the woman chooses to carry them to term and then drop the babies off for adoption or have them aborted.

[green 6]

Thank you Green for your understanding post. I found one point especially interesting: that the people with money will always have access to abortions no matter what. You are right, of course. But did you know that Margaret Sangor, the founder of what is now Planned Parenthood, fought for birth control as a way to limit the amount of black babies being born?? In fact, according to her own writings, she said things like, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated." She even addressed the Ku Klux Klan! This fact is always conveniently left out of any mention of her today, but it puts another interesting spin on the abortion issue, I think.

Thanks for telling me this info about Sanger. Racism and eugenics, a tool which was once viewed as being applicable to this end, are evil.

[L8BloomR 1]

Although I am pro-choice I am also repelled by those individuals who repeatedly use abortion as a birth control method. I am a rather tidy and organized individual by temperament and thus I find it almost impossible to relate to those women who persist in getting themselves into the same difficulties, whether it be getting themselves lumbered with unwanted pregnancies or tied up with abusive men or whatever, over and over again. I am one of those individuals who tries to make a point of learning from her own disasters and I do have a tendency to be harsh towards those women who are unable to get their lives under control. Nicer and more generous women have called me up on my judgemental attitude towards these individuals, individuals whom I see as being just plain careless. Perhaps these kind women are right and I am wrong. Certainly I find it easy to imagine a girl or a woman hard up against it by virtue of one unwanted pregnancy but I do find this business of repeated unwanted pregnancies to be a messed up state of affairs, whether the woman chooses to carry them to term and then drop the babies off for adoption or have them aborted.

I don't think there is anything wrong with feeling and stating a harsher attitude towards women who are so out of control that they abuse their bodies, their lives and/or their babies. Or allow themselves to be abused again and again. I am glad you state your opinion. So many wrongs are never righted because we stay silent or look the other way..... Good for you for learning from your mistakes and not being afraid to expect others to do so, also! :clap2:

[BJean 16]

L8BloomR: Sounds like the three of us have seen a lot of changes for women along the way. It's been an interesting and inspiring ride. I am in awe of the women who stood up for all women, even when it was very unpopular and considered unattractive. And it is nice to discuss these things with a couple of very intelligent women, L8BloomR and Green! Thanks.

I completely agree with you about educating women about viable options when they are faced with an unwanted pregnancy. I hope that all women this day and age have the ability to get help whatever their choices, if they need help. I am thankful for all the resources that are available today.

I do not in any way condone what Sanger and others did back then which were immoral and bigoted. She was not the only one who suggested such things and certain state-run programs endorsed that particular practice of eugenics. However it doesn't negate the good that she did for all women in her work in Planned Parenthood.

Over the years, lots of people have picketed Planned Parenthood because of their policies about abortion, but they were one of the first groups to openly use words like "condom" and "diaphram" and taught women how to protect themselves. There was a time when Planned Parenthood was just about the only organization that was available to reach out and help women.

We talk about all the different means of birth control today and it is hard to understand or believe that a woman would allow herself to be impregnated over and over when she didn't want to be pregnant. There's hardly an excuse for that. One time, sure, but doing the same thing repeatedly tells us it is probably more complicated than even she knows. I know she's your friend, and she is very fortunate to have you. I am sure you are a very supportive friend.

Years ago women didn't have all of the options they do today. And birth control wasn't talked about openly like it is today. Planned Parenthood has helped thousands of troubled women, whether or not you agree with their policies or the people who founded it. I would imagine that Sanger would be very embarrassed by her stupid remarks today. And frankly I don't see how it puts any spin at all on the abortion issue.

Having said all of that, I do not think that all of this has much bearing on whether the Supreme Court and our government should be allowed to dictate decisions about women and their bodies.

P.S. A fetus is most certainly a part of a woman's body until it is outside the womb. It is not a separate entity within its' mother's womb. Again, not relevant to the discussion of women's rights though.

[green 6]

It is possible that you may already be aware of this fact but in the USSR it was easier for women to have abortions than to practice birth control. Condoms and the other paraphenalia required were simply not easily available in that land of chronic shortages.

[L8BloomR 1]

Just wanted to clarify one thing from my previous post.... My friend who had all the abortions had them before I met her. I, like Green, do not deal well with people who continue making the same mistakes again and again, especially when a baby is involved. I just couldn't be close to someone like that. When I met my friend, she was a wounded thing.... empty and sad. She turned to me and our friendship grew from there.

So no one nominate me for sainthood because of my non-judgemental ways.....

[396power 2]

see what you can do to make yourself worthy of the pearly gates

Cris -THe only way anyone can make make themselves "worthy" of heaven is a belief and trust in Jesus Christ. We are all unworthy based on our own actions because the standard is Jesus who was without sin and perfect. And none of us can measure up to that. And as for as imposing our beleifs as Christians on others we are called in Matt. 28 : 19 to "therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." So as a Christian it is our duty to tell others about Jesus and His standards. Not to mention that someone has to defend the lives that He created in these mother's wombs. He is the only one who can create life and if it was not His intent for that baby to be born then He would not have created it.

sorry I have been away so long. But this was my thought upon reading her post also.

[TommyO 5]

If it was not his intent for the baby to be aborted he would not have allowed it. As a matter of fact based on what I read from the fundamentalist Christians He already knew it was going to happen a thousand years ago and continues to let abortion happen so he must condone it.

[L8BloomR 1]

If it was not his intent for the baby to be aborted he would not have allowed it. As a matter of fact based on what I read from the fundamentalist Christians He already knew it was going to happen a thousand years ago and continues to let abortion happen so he must condone it.

So, God "condones" serial killings, the Holocaust, genocide in Darfur and elsewhere, mass rapes, tortures, etc., because he knew it was going to happen but he doesn't stop it?? Please!! God gave man a free will, and even though He knew that some would abuse it terribly, He knows that others will use it wisely in order to please Him and better the world. Christians believe we will all have to account, one day, for the way we used or misused His gift of free will.

[green 6]

I find myself growing kind of uncomfortable with these arguments for these presume that there is a God and that this Supreme Being fits, moreover, the description supplied in Christian texts, that is to say, the Old and New Testaments. You are aware that there are significant numbers of the world's population who are just as certain that their God or Gods are the correct one/s. And even if you are able to successfully boil down the definition of God to the Christian story there are any number of warring sects within this group. Why, there are some Christians who do not believe that other Christians can rightfully claim themselves to be true believers. And we see similar confusion going on in that other major group of true believers, the followers of Islam. Yep, there are Sunnis and Shi'ites who are intent on slaughtering each other because each cult does not consider the other group to share in a true understanding of the nature of God.

I personally do not believe that is a God but I would have to say, given the clamour of voices in this world, each one certain that his or her God is the real McCoy, that I would be inclined to be cautious about deciding whose God is the best God or, indeed, the only God. If you agree with my logic this would indicate that you should hold off on the judgemental stuff and leave all of that up to God who is Someone who arguably has a much larger overview than you or I do.

[late 0]

L8Bloom - Well put