who supports right to choose

[BJean 16]

I have a solution. All those pro-lifers up in Alberta can really put their beliefs to the test and up the population of their country in one fell swoop. They must each pledge to support a minimum of 2 unplanned recently impregnanted women in the U.S. They will pay for food, clothing, medical care (including vitamins) and housing for the women while they are pregnant. Then pay for the medical for the newborn infant and pick them up at the hospital (of the biological mother's choice) as soon as they are physically able to leave hospital. Then they must legally adopt that infant and take care of them until they are fully grown, send them to college, pay for their wedding (if the child chooses), babysit the grandchildren. But they must vow to never dampen the doorstep of the biological mother, ever. Everyone wins.

[green 6]

I have a solution. All those pro-lifers up in Alberta can really put their beliefs to the test and up the population of their country in one fell swoop. They must each pledge to support a minimum of 2 unplanned recently impregnanted women in the U.S. They will pay for food, clothing, medical care (including vitamins) and housing for the women while they are pregnant. Then pay for the medical for the newborn infant and pick them up at the hospital (of the biological mother's choice) as soon as they are physically able to leave hospital. Then they must legally adopt that infant and take care of them until they are fully grown, send them to college, pay for their wedding (if the child chooses), babysit the grandchildren. But they must vow to never dampen the doorstep of the biological mother, ever. Everyone wins.

This is a pretty good idea and won't be as expensive as it would be south of the border for we have universal health care and even our ivy league universities are funded, in part, provincially through the contributions of the taxpayers. Only those students who are here on foreign student visas get smacked with the full costs of university tuition. Landed immigrants and Canadian citizens pay part of the freight, and the rest is on the taxpayers' dime.

But to put the numbers in proportion, the entire population of Alberta was, the last time I looked, roughly the same number of inhabitants as we have in the Greater Toronto Area and not everyone of these individuals carries a "Jesus bat," to use the colourful phrase of Fuel Man.:girl_hug:

[gadgetlady 4]

Below is a copy of my last post, I am copying it again as, I would like to restate it. Because, after I said this, all anyone did was argue, quoteing each other, and throwing up, Defensive walls and arranging Offence moves. Without taking any ones inventory, or hurting any ones feelings, BUT don't you think it's kind of........ a waste of time ???? I don't want to change any ones mind, but look at the poll, it seems to say a lot.... right ??? And instead of trying to change any one else's mind, Why don't we put our energy's together and work towards a solution. Try to enlighten each other, show each other how to love, by being as loving as I can be, Honest, but loving.

FuelMan, there is nothing wrong with your sentiments, but there is also nothing wrong with each side's presenting the facts and the basis behind their beliefs. Facts sometimes DO change minds Look at all of the former abortionists and clinic workers who are now pro-life. Is there anyone more entrenched in their position than the person performing or working in an abortion clinic? If THEIR minds can be changed, isn't there hope that everyone's mind can?

As to working together towards a solution, when both sides disagree on what the solution should be (one side: make abortion illegal; other side: keep abortion legal), it's unlikely that they will work together.

I completely agree with you that women are so influenced by advertising and societal norms that they allow themselves to be treated with disrespect. I don't think anyone disagrees. Can the reversal of that prevent unplanned pregnancies? Possibly, although it certainly won't eradicate them. But for those of us who understand that abortion stops a beating heart, our focus is to stop the killing.

[gadgetlady 4]

I have a solution. All those pro-lifers up in Alberta can really put their beliefs to the test and up the population of their country in one fell swoop. They must each pledge to support a minimum of 2 unplanned recently impregnanted women in the U.S. They will pay for food, clothing, medical care (including vitamins) and housing for the women while they are pregnant. Then pay for the medical for the newborn infant and pick them up at the hospital (of the biological mother's choice) as soon as they are physically able to leave hospital. Then they must legally adopt that infant and take care of them until they are fully grown, send them to college, pay for their wedding (if the child chooses), babysit the grandchildren. But they must vow to never dampen the doorstep of the biological mother, ever. Everyone wins.

Sign me up. I'd do it in an instant. I have, many times, volunteered to adopt the baby of a woman considering abortion (despite her ethnic background).

[BJean 16]

That's truly commendable gadget. How many babies of different ethnic origins have you adopted to date? I think it's great that you've put your money where your mouth is.

[gadgetlady 4]

That's truly commendable gadget. How many babies of different ethnic origins have you adopted to date? I think it's great that you've put your money where your mouth is.

Unfortunately, everyone I've offered it to has either aborted or chosen to give their baby life and keep custody of him or her. But that doesn't mean my offers were hollow. I would have, and still will, gladly do it.

[tink128 0]

Gadgetlady, you are I agree wholeheartedly on this issue and my husband and I are also currently looking into supporting a womans pregnancy with healthcare food clothing and even a place to live if she needs it. We do not discrimminate based on race. We will just be blessed to have shared in such an important part of the pregnant girls life and the baby's whether she chooses to give the baby up for adoption or not. How many pro-choicers would be willing to do the same?

[tink128 0]

By the way Blessings to Butch S and his shared thoughts. If more men felt the way you did about women we would all be happily married and there would be no need for divorce or abortion!!!

[FuelMan 2]

As to working together towards a solution, when both sides disagree on what the solution should be (one side: make abortion illegal; other side: keep abortion legal), it's unlikely that they will work together. "Quote"

Gadget Lady........

Gadget - If you look beyond the tip of your nose, you will see it's not about making abortions legal or illegal, it makes very little difference one way or the other. If you don't confront the main issue, we are just blowing in the wind. Abortions are a symptom of the disease, there are a lot of others as well, female abuse, child abuse, child neglect & abandment....... etc. How can you just look at one aspect and put so much time, money and energy on this one and neglect all the others. Take a step and try and focus on the root of the disease. The root as I see it, as I have stated before is how men see the world and how they see woman, and how woman see them self's. If we change this, we can not only be done with abortion but a whole slew of other sympton's. Do you really thing if you make abortion illegal it will stop anything ???? I can even believe you or any semi-intelligent person believes this. If you make it illegal, it will just go underground. You know how illegal drugs are.....right?? Well.... you can get them on just about any corner in any town in the US, so how will this stop anything. Drugs, just like abortion is a symptom to the real disease, low and poor self esteem, not feeling like we are enough. In FACT........ that's why fatty's overeat, we are trying to fill that hole in our soul, weather it be with food, drugs, sex, whatever, if we saw our self's in a good light and felt safe in our homes and in our world, if people in charge really cared, and if greed was not a way of life how happy and secure would we all feel, and love would abound.

This government wants us to feel Fear, be Afraid, to feel insecure about our life's, they want us to feel like we have only THEM between us and the dangers of a cruel world. But in truth...... it's the government that's makes us feel insecure, they don't take care of there Old, there Young, there Soldiers, there Woman, they don't take care of anyone except the 3% who have 80% of the money. You see if your rich, I mean really rich, you don't have anything to worry about. BUT, if your poor, or even lower class working stiff's, how can you make it here in the US, you work your butt off just to make ends meet, then they give you not enough money to live on for 50 years of working. Now how safe do you think that make people feel ???? Even the people with some money, the ones we use to call the middle class, are worried to death about the future and how they will make it, and the young are scared to think of the future. What if you get sick, or your child gets sick, the hospital's don't care and charge you whatever, or some don't even take you unless you have enough coverage, how safe does that make you feel.

I know I said I was not coming back on here, but........ I could not help another RANT, sorry my bad, I should be keeping an even keel and thinking what would God Do ????? He would not start pointing the finger, and blaming, He would start make changes through the divine act of LOVE. Thank you for the time if you read this, and Namasta.

Butch S

[IndioGirl55 32]

My body, my choice ....

Not yours, Not congress......

It's between me and God......

It's Legal and should stay that way.

[TommyO 5]

Fuel man, although I agree with much of what you say I must disagree with one of your premises.

You state "Drugs, just like abortion is a symptom to the real disease, low and poor self esteem, not feeling like we are enough. In FACT........ that's why fatty's overeat, we are trying to fill that hole in our soul,"

I think that statements like these are to general and give people the impression that there are simple answers to very complicated questions. In many ways it is no different than Gadgetlady assuming that making abortion illegal will solve the problem. For every drug addict, overwieght person or pregnant female there are a unique set of circumstances that brought them to that state. I believe that, because we all live within a unique set of circumstances we require unique solutions. As an example most of the people who are on this site have or are considering having the Lap band surgery as part of a solution for obesity. How we use the band and why we chose the band and for that matter the reasons we are over weight are as unique as we are. I can say without a shadow of doubt that none of the reasons you give why people are overweight apply to me.

Because of this a one size fits all solution does not work no matter if the issue is drug addiction, obesity or abortion. And that is why creating laws that make abortion illegal is not the right thing to do. The only person who make the decision is the individual who is fat, addicted or pregnant.

I decided to get a lap band based on a unique set of reasons and I am fat because of a unique set of reasons. That is why I should have the right to choose my solution. The state decided that I must pay for the operation myself but I was the person who made the decision for me.

It was about my right to choose!!!

[green 6]

Fuel man, although I agree with much of what you say I must disagree with one of your premises.

You state "Drugs, just like abortion is a symptom to the real disease, low and poor self esteem, not feeling like we are enough. In FACT........ that's why fatty's overeat, we are trying to fill that hole in our soul,"

I think that statements like these are to general and give people the impression that there are simple answers to very complicated questions. In many ways it is no different than Gadgetlady assuming that making abortion illegal will solve the problem. For every drug addict, overwieght person or pregnant female there are a unique set of circumstances that brought them to that state. I believe that, because we all live within a unique set of circumstances we require unique solutions. As an example most of the people who are on this site have or are considering having the Lap band surgery as part of a solution for obesity. How we use the band and why we chose the band and for that matter the reasons we are over weight are as unique as we are. I can say without a shadow of doubt that none of the reasons you give why people are overweight apply to me.

Because of this a one size fits all solution does not work no matter if the issue is drug addiction, obesity or abortion. And that is why creating laws that make abortion illegal is not the right thing to do. The only person who make the decision is the individual who is fat, addicted or pregnant.

I decided to get a lap band based on a unique set of reasons and I am fat because of a unique set of reasons. That is why I should have the right to choose my solution. The state decided that I must pay for the operation myself but I was the person who made the decision for me.

It was about my right to choose!!!

Now with respect the above statement, TommyO, I am inclined to disagree with you. While we would all like to think of ourselves as being unique we are human beings and we do share characteristics and we do tend to fit into certain profiles. This is what the soft sciences are all about - psychology, sociology, anthropology, and social anthropology - the study of our behaviour patterns, as a species, as a collection of cultures, and as individuals. These are the areas of research which seek to examine the communalities between us, the communalities and the differences. (As you know, we Canucks are very different from our American cousins in a number of significant areas.)

Fuel Man has made some very interesting comments about the interplay of an array of dysfunctional behaviours and what he sees as the general sense of personal anxiety/vulnerability/alienation/fear prevalent in American society today. This he views as being due to a government which panders to the rich and yet maintains its voter base through instilling paranoia in the very citizens whom it is not serving. The working class and the middle class are floundering financially/psychologically in the new America. The new sense of survivalism on the mean streets and the concommitant paranoia creates a dysfunctional environment. People stress out and behave badly. At least that is my interpretation of Fuel Man's assessment of the situation.

And I don't figure that he wants abortion to be criminalized. He is more concerned with the underlying causes of these unwanted pregnancies, something that he views as an indicator of the dysfunction of his society.

The way I read it he figures that if women and girls had more self-love and self-respect they would be less likely to be engineered into situations where they found themselves pregnant in the first place. Girls who are not treated well by the men around them and who receive negative messages from society are not likely to feel any self-love or self-respect of course. They will feel less comfortable about taking control of their own lives. It can be argued that men, too, may find themselves so challenged by the demands of this society that they have little kindness or love left to give and so will treat women badly.

As for the one size fits all business, it is true that when a society is healthy, well-educated, and productive the array of dysfunctional behaviours plummets. As you know from where you and I live, TommyO, (the Toronto-Oakville area) the rate of obesity, teenage pregnancies, street violence, and dysfunctional (as contrasted with controlled, recreational, eh ) drug use is very low compared to that of most American cities.

[Lisa99 1]

Have you ever wondered how a child feels when he learns his mother has had an abortion? "What makes me different from my brother or sister?" (because, as you know, the gender of the baby is sure when the abortion is performed) "Why did mom give me life and not my sibling?" "If circumstances were different when my mom got pregnant with me, would I be alive right now, either?" "Why did mom want ME and not my brother/sister? Why am I different?"

Yes Gadget Lady, I know the exact answer to your question. In the 1970s I was 11 years old and the oldest of 3 kids. My alcoholic abusive step-father regularly mounted my mother without using protection. She became pregnant twice in less than a year. Each time he told her that she had to have an abortion or he would leave her. She did as he told her each time....abortion was not her choice, but she did what she was told to "preserve the family"....there are MANY sides to this debate.

[BJean 16]

Butch I think you are a very bright guy. I agree with a whole lot of what you had to say. The reason I agree with you is because I have been witness to it, practically all of my life. I don't think that we will ever reach Nirvana though, as much as we would like to think we could. But I feel a lot of the time as if we are just fighting among ourselves, and the administration is loving every minute of it. It's a great diversion from the fact that they are not working to solve any of the majority of our country's problems. They're too busy making bucket loads of money before they leave office.

Tommy of course we are all individuals and we all have different qualities as well as different problems. We are as different as our fingerprints and DNA indicate. No two of us are alike. Identical twins are even different in certain ways. So no one particular panacea will work to solve all the personal problems that we have in our lives. But let's face it, we can do much better!

Green I do admire much about my Canadian cousins and their beautiful country. But I have to tell you, sometimes I wonder if your pride in your country isn't keeping you fitted with rose colored glasses. When we moved to Montreal, we were told that there were no "street people" and no beggars and practically no crime. That wasn't true. There were lots of street people there. One guy who was begging on the street one day actually landed a punch in my DH's face. We witnessed men urinating on the streets quite often. There was always a puddle of pee in many of the downtown Metro stops. There was a murder just around the corner from us in a jewelry store during a robbery.

Did I read about it in any of the newspapers or see it on the news? Not very often. The newscasters did not stupidly sensationalize shocking stories like they do in the states, and I do not doubt that more crazy things go on down here than in your parts, but your country isn't Nirvana either. (Although I do admit that it's closer to it than the U.S.A.)

For all the negative stuff you hear about what's happening down here, just please remember that we have a crazy media that loves to exaggerate for effect. Most of our neighborhoods are quite safe and beautiful places to live.

We do spend a lot of time debating and criticizing our own, that's one of the really neat things about us. But it also wreaks havoc on our self-esteem, both as a country and as individuals.

[late 0]

Indiogirl - It is between you and God and one of these days every aborted child will see their mother in heaven and that mom will have to answer alot of hard questions.