who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

That's definitely laudable. Unfortunately, I think you are either in the minority or the other folks have much louder voices, so to speak.

I think you'd be surprised. The media and the pro-abortion side tend to paint pro-lifers as hateful of women, disdainful, and haughty, and it's just not true. I think you'd be surprised at the compassion and love in the movement. You won't see it on the news and you won't hear it from your side but go, yourself, and talk to them IRL (not debating on a forum). I think it'd be a real eye-opener.

[anonemouse 1]

I have talked to pro-life folks in real life. And the ones I have talked to have been not necessarily hateful of women, but definitely believe that women have their place and that they should stay in it and they have disdained women who dared to get out of their pigeon-hole of being a wife and mother, and being subservient to men. Do I think that there are different folks out there? You bet, but I've not been in contact with very many. It may be different in Southern California, but in the South, there are those stereotypes for a reason.

To be honest, you probably think I am intolerant of super-conservative Christians. And I am, to a certain extent. But that's because I know what many of them are like where I'm from. The vast majority that I have EVER been in contact with (some of my family included) have been racist (latently or obviously), sexist, homophobic, etc. That is the impression I have been given of conservative Christians. Again, I know intellectually that the stereotype is not true of all conservative Christians. But I think that, like all stereotypes, there is truth to it, in some cases.

[gadgetlady 4]

I have talked to pro-life folks in real life. And the ones I have talked to have been not necessarily hateful of women, but definitely believe that women have their place and that they should stay in it and they have disdained women who dared to get out of their pigeon-hole of being a wife and mother, and being subservient to men. Do I think that there are different folks out there? You bet, but I've not been in contact with very many. It may be different in Southern California, but in the South, there are those stereotypes for a reason.

To be honest, you probably think I am intolerant of super-conservative Christians. And I am, to a certain extent. But that's because I know what many of them are like where I'm from. The vast majority that I have EVER been in contact with (some of my family included) have been racist (latently or obviously), sexist, homophobic, etc. That is the impression I have been given of conservative Christians. Again, I know intellectually that the stereotype is not true of all conservative Christians. But I think that, like all stereotypes, there is truth to it, in some cases.

That makes me sad -- not that you feel that way, but that people you know behave like that.

[green 6]

Fuel man, I appreciated your post. Thanks.

[anonemouse 1]

That makes me sad -- not that you feel that way, but that people you know behave like that.

I hate that I do it, but I guess I view people through tinted glasses sometimes. I think we all do, though. I have been exposed to so many people that fit the stereotypes I mentioned earlier, that it does color my view of other people in those groups. And then I meet people on here that fit that stereotype (at least, in my interaction with them), and it colors my opinion of those groups even more. (Note, I'm not referring to you, Gadgetlady. I think we can generally get along, and we actually agree on a lot of things, even if we have to agree to disagree on others. Plus, I think we both like intellectual conversations. )

[gadgetlady 4]

I hate that I do it, but I guess I view people through tinted glasses sometimes. I think we all do, though. I have been exposed to so many people that fit the stereotypes I mentioned earlier, that it does color my view of other people in those groups. And then I meet people on here that fit that stereotype (at least, in my interaction with them), and it colors my opinion of those groups even more. (Note, I'm not referring to you, Gadgetlady. I think we can generally get along, and we actually agree on a lot of things, even if we have to agree to disagree on others. Plus, I think we both like intellectual conversations. )

I actually have a comment that I use quite often in my life: "I hate it when people reinforce their stereotypes." I really do, because it causes us to look at people not as individuals but as members of a group which we don't always fully understand. It is particularly unfortunate when members of our family fit into that stereotype, because of the visceral, emotional reaction we have to our family. Those stereotypes are even more difficult to overcome because of the strong emotions attached to them.

In any case, I agree that we do like intellectual conversations even if we don't agree on particular issues :biggrin1:

[anonemouse 1]

It is particularly unfortunate when members of our family fit into that stereotype, because of the visceral, emotional reaction we have to our family. Those stereotypes are even more difficult to overcome because of the strong emotions attached to them.

Oh, yeah, that makes it even worse. My family is relatively diverse, both in political beliefs and religious beliefs. My dad's family was raised in the Disciples of Christ denomination in Nashville in the '30s, '40s, and '50's. Obviously, that did not lend itself to racial tolerance, a fact that makes itself known more and more as they get older. One of my uncles converted to Catholicism when he married, and one of my aunts became Southern Baptist when she married. Another aunt is very liberal, as is one of the other uncles. As you can probably imagine, family gatherings can be quite tense, as none of the family members knows how to keep their mouth shut. (Except me, I tend to shut up and observe, since I am the only Atheist I know of in the family, and that fact would not go over well. Plus, it can be quite entertaining at times.)

In any case, I agree that we do like intellectual conversations even if we don't agree on particular issues

Hey, it makes for good, if occasionally a little too spirited, conversation. :heh:

[niecyrenee 2]

And then some one will try to misqoute scripture, Like don't judge least you be judged. You think that we are judging them,no I'm not. Here is somthing you should read Befor you start telling me I'm judging.

When Jesus said, "Do not judge, and you will not be judged," was He implying that we should regard everyone's viewpoint equally?

I beg your pardon. I was the one who quoted that scripture and I was NOT misquoting scripture! Maybe you need to read a little closer before you start making assumptions. I was trying to point out that you shouldn't CONDEMN people for believing differently then you; that you should love them and present the basis for your beliefs to them in the hopes of changing their mind. I do not agree with abortion but I also don't agree with going around and trying to bully people into believing like I do. If I can't present my argument in a loving, respectful way, then I have NO business in trying.

Oh and by the way, I was not referring to you when I made that statement so don't accuse me (the person who referred to not judging people) of judging you.

[niecyrenee 2]

They are divine children of God, and as soon as we start treating them as such you will see a huge drop in abortions and many other things like rape, abuse, ..........etc. A lot of our social problems rise from this. Men are not accountable for there actions, in fact they are looked up to and rewarded for it. If we start to look at the REAL PROBLEM we will see where this leads to many, many problems. I agree that we need a spiritual awaking, BUT you just can't run around thumping people with the Bible, and beating them half to death with your "Jesus Bat". We have to love them first, love them & understand them where they are, and what they are. Then we can show them by example how to live and how to love.

:amen: Very nicely put. Thank you!

[BJean 16]

laurend when I was in high school I belonged to the First Christian Church which was a part of the Disciples of Christ organization. In our little southern town, our minister spent a lot of time speaking to the congregation about tolerance and love and forgiveness. Bias of any kind was not acceptable. I was married in the First Baptist Church into a very conservative, religious family. They practically owned their own pew in their very large church. The atmosphere in that church was quite a contrast to the First Methodist Church's teachings and the First Christian Church's teachings. That Baptist Church, which was a fundamentalist Southern Baptist Church, was all hell, fire and brimstone. I could tell you some stories that would raise the hair on your arms.

[anonemouse 1]

laurend when I was in high school I belonged to the First Christian Church which was a part of the Disciples of Christ organization. In our little southern town, our minister spent a lot of time speaking to the congregation about tolerance and love and forgiveness. Bias of any kind was not acceptable. I was married in the First Baptist Church into a very conservative, religious family. They practically owned their own pew in their very large church. The atmosphere in that church was quite a contrast to the First Methodist Church's teachings and the First Christian Church's teachings. That Baptist Church, which was a fundamentalist Southern Baptist Church, was all hell, fire and brimstone. I could tell you some stories that would raise the hair on your arms.

As a whole, the Disciples of Christ denomination is actually fairly liberal, for a Christian denomination. Of course, that's relative. I met a lot of wonderful people when I was going to church. I also met some horrible, bigoted people that used their religious belief to excuse their bigotry.

[BJean 16]

Unfortunately I guess they're everywhere. Not just in Iran or the southern parts of the U.S.A. Oh yeah, except maybe for Canada. They seem to be all over it there, from Green's teachings anyway.

[FuelMan 2]

Below is a copy of my last post, I am copying it again as, I would like to restate it. Because, after I said this, all anyone did was argue, quoteing each other, and throwing up, Defensive walls and arranging Offence moves. Without taking any ones inventory, or hurting any ones feelings, BUT don't you think it's kind of........ a waste of time ???? I don't want to change any ones mind, but look at the poll, it seems to say a lot.... right ??? And instead of trying to change any one else's mind, Why don't we put our energy's together and work towards a solution. Try to enlighten each other, show each other how to love, by being as loving as I can be, Honest, but loving. I think this will be my last trip to this thread. Good Luck.

I can see there are a lot of strong feelings on this page, and everyone is feeling they are right, and the other wrong. I ask why argue ??? It just causes disharmony and anger, if not bad feelings for the other. I am asking for us to look at the solution to this problem. The fact is that abortion is the after fact to the problem. As I have said before, if mothers felt good about having there children, and if they where promised the care and help to become a strong healthy mother, and how to be an example of strength and love to her child, and to herself, how much of a better person she would be. Then she will have no need to rely on a man to fulfill her, and she will demand a strong man of good moral Fiber who will be a farther and a husband, not just someone to make a baby. These young woman are out there on there own (so to speak) feeling like they are less then, and all they are is a sex toys, they are not smart and don't have to be, if they are good looking according to Madison Avenue. But the ones that can't make the cut, and are not good looking or FAT (God for bid) all they have is there body, or a part of there body they are willing to allow any man into just to feel like they are wanted, because we, society, do not tell them they are worth it, because they don't have the right stuff to wear or the right body type, or the right height, hair, legs hips, eyes,........etc. If you don't make it by our measuring stick, well.... back to the end of the line, because the best you will be able to do is get someone to marry you, any one, in fact as long as they are willing to have you, you better jump at it.

I ask why are we telling our young woman this lode of crap ???? Why is it imperative to brutalize our woman, and treat them like Kleenex people, take one blow, and throw away. Watch TV (the idiot box) or movies, or God Forbid, watch music videos, you will see how "Wonder Land" (the powers that be in Hollywood or where ever) see and acts towards our woman. They are NOT sex toys or Kleenex people. They are divine children of God, and as soon as we start treating them as such you will see a huge drop in abortions and many other things like rape, abuse, ..........etc. A lot of our social problems rise from this. Men are not accountable for there actions, in fact they are looked up to and rewarded for it. If we start to look at the REAL PROBLEM we will see where this leads to many, many problems. I agree that we need a spiritual awaking, BUT you just can't run around thumping people with the Bible, and beating them half to death with your "Jesus Bat". We have to love them first, love them & understand them where they are, and what they are. Then we can show them by example how to live and how to love.

If I had one wish, I would wish that our government where not so greedy, and we could spend our money, on our problems here at home. Not to say we would not have plenty of money left for others. Has anyone here any idea what a trillion looks like ????? I think there would be a lot to cover what needs to be done, as long as we kept the greedy people out of the mix. So my one wish would be to have greed out of government and society, LOL, Fat Chance, right ????? If I made any sense.... Thank you for Reading. If Didn't I am sorry, sometimes I have too many thoughts in my head and they get mixed up, too many drugs from the 60's, LOL. Peace.

Butch S

__________________

[BJean 16]

Butch: The only good that comes of it for me is that I get to vent my spleen and I also get to know about the latest stuff is that is going on within the anti-abortion movement. Their tactics make me furious but it's stuff that we need to know is going on.

You are right though - I doubt seriously if anyone's mind is changed one way or the other. We've all formed our own opinions and beliefs about the subject by our particular exposure to the question from the clergy, the news media, our friends, our families, our own personal experiences and from (in some cases) careful study of the issue. A few posts here aren't likely to change those beliefs.

Btw, I went to high school with a Butch Stepp. That isn't you, is it?

[green 6]

Unfortunately I guess they're everywhere. Not just in Iran or the southern parts of the U.S.A. Oh yeah, except maybe for Canada. They seem to be all over it there, from Green's teachings anyway.:girl_hug:

Oh, we got some up here, but not that many of 'em and nobody much pays 'em any heed. Politicians are aware that they must downplay their own beliefs - our current (conservative) Prime Minister is a Christian - because this sort of thing tends to alienate most voters. This government is a minority government and has a number of social conservatives sitting as members of parliament who were elected in Canada's Bible Belt, the Province of Alberta. (Indeed, our current PM is an Alberta boy.) These individuals had promised their constituents that abortion and same-sex marriage rights would be repealed should their party gain power. The party has been in power for something like 18 months now and these issues have not been revisited.

There was recently a pro-life demonstration in our capital city. Most of the media ignored it altogether. One of the national newspapers discussed why it was considered a non-event by our media.

That is how life is up here in godless Canada where atheists roam wild in the streets.:target: