who supports right to choose

[anonemouse 1]

You are very welcome! I just can't imagine treating someone differently then how I expect to be treated. It's preposterous!

It's unfortunate that other people don't understand that. But believe me, it is a very welcome change.

To be honest, I don't even read Daffodil's posts anymore. They are all the same, condemning everyone who doesn't believe like she does. And not only that, she does it in the most offensive way possible. Hear that, Daffodil? You have lost any chance you ever had to convert pro-choice people on this site to a pro-life stance. No one listens to people that attack them. No one listens to people that openly consider them sub-human. No one is listening to YOU. Become more like Neicyrenee, and people may actually start listening to you and considering your stance. Heck, you may even gain some converts. But as long as you continue to act and post like you do, no one will consider your arguments. Why would they? You don't respect them and you don't respect their position and you don't respect the reasons why they have taken the position they have. So please, like Mark said, if you want to further the pro-choice movement, continue posting in the same style that you have been. Because, heck, you sure aren't doing anything for the pro-life movement.

[gadgetlady 4]

I said this before but I think it bears saying again:

And there's a difference between having a debate with someone about the legal, moral, philosophical, scientific, and political issues involved and ministering to a scared, pregnant mother. Believe me, when I'm counseling someone who's considering abortion, I don't talk about slave ownership or infanticide. But it's perfectly acceptable in a forum such as this.

[anonemouse 1]

Either way, do you really think other people's minds would be changed when people verbally attack them and call them murderers, etc? Or are people more likely to be swayed in their opinions when the person trying to sway them is polite, respectful of the opinions held by the other person, and persuasive?

By the way, I am not saying that you attack anyone, Gadgetlady. I think that sometimes you may go a little too far, but at least you aren't calling people murderers for being pro-choice.

[FuelMan 2]

At first I was angry that this was posted and so many people want to use this as a platform to get there tiny voice heard. BUT............ I started to read some...... well most of the post's, I was wondering how I would put my belife's on this post. Well I will try.

There is a lot of people in this world 9 billion and riseing. Most of them are not in this country, but there are many, many unwanted baby's anywhere you look. OK, let's me be as honest as I can be, trying not piss anyone off too much. I had a friend buy a healthy white male child through a lawer (it was all on the up & up) for something like 20K. Now that is a nice chunk of change, but remember this is a healthy white baby. NOW......... I wonder what a deformed black child would bring ???? Or maybe not deformed, just a black baby, how much do you think someone would pay for this child ??? Now......... where do these children come from ??? Not kid farms, they come from a place where there are way too many children and not enought people to take care of them. Without social reform and all the money that could be helping match adults with children, or allow the mothers to keep there children in a safe house with other mothers and maybe some older ladys helping those young girls care and raise there kids. Maybe if this where possable there would be less abortions and a lot healthyer kids and mothers. But how can you fix something like this with no fedral funding. But....... if the goverment get involved you will have every fat cat with his grubby little hands in the pot and nothing will ever get done. I blame a lot of this on GREED. We need social reform to help solve this, and with all the money going to the middle east in hopes to control the oil, nothing is left for the people to better there lives.

I don't believe in telling someone what to do with there unborn baby, unless I am willing to keep the child myself. If I tell some young woman to not get an abortion, I better have a dam good reason, better then guilting her into doing something else, something that will not only ruin the child's life but the mother's as well. I have to come up with something better. If I am not willing to take personal responsabilty for the mother and the child, holding the mothers hand through the birth and everything leading up to it, and then taking care of the child till the correct age. If I am not willing to do this, then I have no right telling that woman what to do with her unborn child. We are so quick to go pointing fingers, and shouting sinner, we forget about the person who has to deal with this. I need to help that person, help her find the way and means to raise that child in a SAFE and healthy house, with full medical care for both. How can you expect to stand up for the unborn child at the cost of the woman. And then just leave that child to the winds of the world...... abuse, sexual, phycial, and mental, neglect, the feelings of not being wanted, just a throw away life, that is unless they are a healthy white child, then he or she is worth 20K.

I would like both mother and child to stay together. But with out safe houseing and medical care, and income till the child is in school, and help with how to be a good mother. Without this.......... I say it's better not to have the child at all. You might say this impossiable ???? I say no, but it must start with the goverment standing up and doing what is correct for it's people. Get people in control of the money who know what morals are, and who have an idea of what needs to be done and what things cost, and to oversee the money and make sure it is used wisely. I might be a dreamer, an old Hippie, but we could do this, just stop spending all our money on stupid stuff, like.......... war to name just one. If you read this and understood and of it, Thank You, if I was not making any sense....... just know I grew up in the 60's and tend to think a little differently.

Butch S.

[marjon9 6]

Either way, do you really think other people's minds would be changed when people verbally attack them and call them murderers, etc? Or are people more likely to be swayed in their opinions when the person trying to sway them is polite, respectful of the opinions held by the other person, and persuasive?

By the way, I am not saying that you attack anyone, Gadgetlady. I think that sometimes you may go a little too far, but at least you aren't calling people murderers for being pro-choice.

Laurend, I must say that I have a different view of gadgetlady's approach on this thread. Below is an example.

======================

Quote:

Originally Posted by marjon9

We disagree with each other. I understand and respect your position. You seem unable to do the same with respect to my point of view.

You are absolutely right. I cannot respect any opinion that holds it is acceptable to brutally rip the life away from another human being. Sorry 'bout that.

===========================

To me this is an example of the hysterical pro-life position that says, "anyone who disagrees with the pro-life point of view is an evil, blood-soaked baby killer worthy of no respect and deserving of the shortest possible trip to eternal damnation."

This extreme, hysterical faction of the pro-life movement holds the view that anyone who believes in a woman's right to choose is literally a human incarnation of satan. It is pretty difficult to have a conversation with such a person, and I find gadgetlady to fall within that camp.

But, as I've said before, I welcome these people into the debate. They do more to help our side win the day than anything else I can think of.

[anonemouse 1]

You do have a point, Mark. I had forgotten all about that post.

[marjon9 6]

You do have a point, Mark. I had forgotten all about that post.

I do understand how passionate gadgetlady is about her point of view, and I'm not trying to put her down for it. I know that she really feels like she is fighting to defend babies from a brutal painful death. I may disagree but I understand and respect her position.

But I am also passionate about my point of view. I believe that if the pro-life camp is permitted to start making laws that everyone must follow, women of the United States will suffer greatly, and will, themselves, often face the prospect of a brutal, painful death for doing something that has been legal in this country for decades. I think it is outrageous that members of the pro-life camp are unwilling to acknowledge that reasonable, compassionate, thoughtful people could disagree with the pro-life position, and have a point of view that is worthy of understanding and respect. I'm not asking anyone to change their point of view. But to act like the pro-choice side is indisputably evil and utterly unworthy of respect is an outrageous point of view that makes it impossible to carry on a meaningful conversation.

Fortunately, most people on all sides of the issue understand that, and properly discount and discredit the views of this faction of hysterical pro-life individuals.

[gadgetlady 4]

Respect is an interesting thing. If someone asked you if you respect neo-Nazi's, would you say yes or no? What about pimps, or people who bring children into the sex-slave trade? At some point, when the position the opposition is taking is so brutal and espouses something as horrific as the killing of another human being, you get to the place where you can't respect it.

Do I respect your position on evolution, laurend? Yes, I do. I disagree, but I do respect it. Do I respect the positions of various people on health care, taxes, etc.? Yes, I do. I disagree, but I do respect them. Do I respect the positions of the men who flew the airplanes into the World Trade Center? No. Because their positions killed people. It is the same with this issue.

Now, do I go around screaming at mothers carrying unborn children that if they abort they're murderers? Of course not. Do I tell mothers who have had abortions that they're murderers? Of course not. But if someone asks me what I think, most especially in a debate forum, I will tell them precisely what I think. You must also remember all of this "harsh language" comes at the end of a challenge from the other side -- and, the "harsh language" has not been limited to the pro-life side. I won't go back and dredge it all up, but you can go back and read it if you want to.

I suspect, if it were a position you felt equally strong about, AND a position that advocated the killing of innocent people, you wouldn't mince words, either.

[anonemouse 1]

The thing is, Gadgetlady, the whole purpose of a debate is to get your point of view across and maybe persuade someone to change their ideas, whether that person is the one you are debating with or just a bystander. You may be getting your opinion across, but you aren't persuading anyone. When you call someone a murderer, when you compare them to Nazis and slave-owners, when you call them baby-killers, you flip that little switch in their brain from "I'm listening, you might have a point" to "You're an extremist and you don't respect me, so why should I pay any attention to what you say?" Think of it this way: If I went around and yelled at all the pro-life people I talked to, telling them that they are nothing but a bunch of clinic-bombers and that they were going to be the down-fall of democracy and the American way, and compared their views of women to those of Islamic fascists, do you think they would be likely to jump ship and become pro-choice? No. It's a stupid way to try and change people's minds.

When even pro-life people think you are going too far and not helping their cause, you might want to reconsider your methods.

[gadgetlady 4]

The thing is, Gadgetlady, the whole purpose of a debate is to get your point of view across and maybe persuade someone to change their ideas, whether that person is the one you are debating with or just a bystander. You may be getting your opinion across, but you aren't persuading anyone. When you call someone a murderer, when you compare them to Nazis and slave-owners, when you call them baby-killers, you flip that little switch in their brain from "I'm listening, you might have a point" to "You're an extremist and you don't respect me, so why should I pay any attention to what you say?" Think of it this way: If I went around and yelled at all the pro-life people I talked to, telling them that they are nothing but a bunch of clinic-bombers and that they were going to be the down-fall of democracy and the American way, and compared their views of women to those of Islamic fascists, do you think they would be likely to jump ship and become pro-choice? No. It's a stupid way to try and change people's minds.

When even pro-life people think you are going too far and not helping their cause, you might want to reconsider your methods.

The reason I talk about Nazis and slave-owners is not for the point of comparison, but to get people to THINK about how we define human life. It's to help people understand that the position of "choice" when it comes to the denial of the basic human right to life isn't an acceptable "choice". I don't run around calling the opposition slave-owners or Nazis. I ask the questions -- "WHY is what Hitler did wrong if he believed the Jews were less than human?" "WHY is owning a slave wrong if a slave is defined to be 3/5 of a person?" The obvious answer is that the belief that Jews are less than human and blacks are only 3/5 of a person is an incorrect and indefensible premise to derive policy from.

Again - do I talk about these matters when counseling a scared, pregnant mother? OF COURSE NOT! Do I run around telling mothers who have had abortions that they're murderers? OF COURSE NOT! niecyrenee works in a pregnancy counseling center; I wouldn't expect her FOR A MINUTE to use any of the arguments I've used when talking to an abortion-minded woman, just as I never have. But that is not what we're doing here. We are discussing issues and attempting to logically demonstrate our position. To do that, sometimes we use comparisons and probing questions. And I can tell you that I (and others) have changed peoples' minds using these arguments.

[anonemouse 1]

But Gadgetlady, you never know if someone online is considering an abortion or not, or whether they may consider one in the future. Wouldn't it serve your purposes better to consider them ALL people considering an abortion? I can honestly tell you that if I was having to make a difficult choice in the future about whether or not I would be having an abortion, this thread WOULD play a part in my decision. Every time we hear the pro-life/pro-choice debate, we pick up and store little bits of information, we are affected by the tone of the debaters, etc. So what you say here CAN make a difference in someone's decision. It just might not be the difference you want.

And yes, I don't doubt that you have changed SOME minds with the tactics that you use. But like several of us said earlier, you attract far more flies with honey than with vinegar. You may attract a few flies with vinegar, but you could attract dozens with honey.

[anonemouse 1]

And speaking as someone who would be likely to choose abortion if I discovered tomorrow that I was pregnant, your approach isn't swaying me from my position in the least. Now Neicyrenee, on the other hand, possibly could. She seems sympathetic and understanding. You seem harsh and demanding.

[396power 2]

It's unfortunate that other people don't understand that. But believe me, it is a very welcome change.

To be honest, I don't even read Daffodil's posts anymore. They are all the same, condemning everyone who doesn't believe like she does. And not only that, she does it in the most offensive way possible. Hear that, Daffodil? You have lost any chance you ever had to convert pro-choice people on this site to a pro-life stance. No one listens to people that attack them. No one listens to people that openly consider them sub-human. No one is listening to YOU. Become more like Neicyrenee, and people may actually start listening to you and considering your stance. Heck, you may even gain some converts. But as long as you continue to act and post like you do, no one will consider your arguments. Why would they? You don't respect them and you don't respect their position and you don't respect the reasons why they have taken the position they have. So please, like Mark said, if you want to further the pro-choice movement, continue posting in the same style that you have been. Because, heck, you sure aren't doing anything for the pro-life movement.

That's kind of the pot calling the kettle black! And to your other comment. How do you know that I'm not educated in science. For all you know lady I may be smarter than you think. Just becuase A man cannot spell does not make him an idiot. I no that you know more about science than I do. That is a given (because you said that is your job And I belive you) But I know as much about the theory of Evolution as the slightly above average joe. So please don't try to insult me because I don't agree with some of the most book smart people in the world. I don't belive that we evolved from anything else. I know in My heart that the Bible is true, and If it is true then I also belive that man was made in one day I choose to belive that, And I know it to be true becuase I have choosen to take off the blinders, and look around and I know that all things that revolve around this world were not just big bang. or whatever you say it is or the scientist of the week say's. They cannot explain life (the sun,stars,moon,gravitational pulls, photosynthesis,How a Tomato seed will make a tomato plant and a watermelon seed will make a watermelon vine in the same set of ground. And how it grows in that same ground and they both taste differnt! Big bang can not do that! every bang I have ever seen destroys things Somthing has to make all this work. I have a Savior in Heaven that does just that. And that is why I do not need a master in science to now that Evolution is just a theory and not a law. I have a Master And he made all things. (even science)

[BJean 16]

FuelMan: We must be about the same age. I totally understand your viewpoint and it is very refreshing to hear someone speak to the problems of society that contribute to making abortion sometimes the only choice for some women.

If we made some really serious changes with regard to ensuring that pregnant women and the unwanted children that they are pregnant with, are well taken care of and respected, it would go a long way to solve many of the problems of unwanted pregnancies that we've been discussing here.

Some of my earlier posts in this arugment were a reaction to the insistence by the anti-abortion people that these troubled women simply give their children up for adoption. I stopped short of wondering if they had some financial stake in more adoptions. I felt that was just too awful a concept. But I do know that there are people who are in that business, as distasteful as it may be.

My arguments had to do with the mother who has nurtured her baby through all the stages its' development, from fertilized egg through the pregnancy and to finally, hopefully, delivering a wonderful living breathing human being. Women are generally nurturing creatures and to transition through all of the stages of conception through delivery and experience the unconditional love that they feel for their baby, it is unconcsionable to ask a woman to then lovingly surrender that child to someone else. It isn't selfish for a mother to want to keep her child - it is nature's way and it is the preferable way, just as I think you were saying.

Your suggestions are far superior and more practical - to put women in the position of being able to love and nurture their babies and raise them in a healthy environment. What a huge contrast to the ideas of adoption or abortion.

As for the war, I'm afraid most of the people who've posted that they are completely, vehemently opposed to abortion, are the same people who support our president and the war he has committed us to. It is as much a mystery to me as all of the intelligent and thoughtful things that laurend, mark, niecyrenee and a few others have pointed out as weaknesses in many of the anti-abortion posts in this thread.

Thanks very much for your input FireMan, I believe you made some very relevant points!

[BJean 16]

laurend, I don't know about you, but after reading one of the above posts, I rest my case.