who supports right to choose

[babygrl1234 6]

What is then your definition of when human being is formed?

When it can live outside of the womb. A 6 week fetus cannot do so therefore I don't think of it as a human. I think late term abortion is sickening. I also think that people who have had several abortions and have not tried to prevent those pregnancies are sickening. But it is not my place to make the decision of what a woman can and cannot do with her own body. It is not my choice, it is her choice.

[lisah25 3]

Lisah have you ever had a child? If so, you are willing to say that your child was not a human being until he/she could live outside of your womb? What about her heartbeat that you saw at 6 weeks what about his kicking that started at 3-4 months? Your baby would not have survived outside of the womb then?

No I haven't, but I was there for the ultra-sounds and birth of my niece and a close friend's baby.

Let me be clear, I am not for abortion. I wouldn't have one, nor advise one under most circumstances. I believe that before viability, the woman is carrying a wonderful possible life. One I want to see be born. I'm not however ready to legally require women to agree with me.

[tink128 0]

Enough said I understand what are you are saying because I held your position too before I had a child. Let me know if you change your mind after you see the ultrasound of your baby's beating heart at 6 weeks and then let me know if you think she is not alive then! What say you babygirl1234?

[babygrl1234 6]

I have two children actually. And I still feel the way that I do.

[tink128 0]

So are you saying that when you had your 6 week ultrasound and saw her heart beating you did not think that she was alive?

[babygrl1234 6]

And actually to add on to that I would like to mention that my daughter that I had at age 20 was conceived while using condoms. At the time it pretty much ruined my life. My husband (then boyfirend) and I had only been together for 5 months tops. But I tried to do the "right" thing according to my parents. My son was concieved while I was on the pill. I also had an unknown fetus that was conceived while I had an IUD. Luckily when my IUD was removed it caused a miscarriage or I would have had to make a tough decision. I was pretty sure I had already made it though. I would have chosen to make sure that my two children were safe and healthy and cared for. We have never been financially well off and probably won't be for quite some time. Another child for me is just uneccesary strain on already limited resources. Since then DH has had a vasectomy. If I get pregnant again I may just physically remove my uterus myself.

As a side note a good friend of mine also got pregnant with an IUD. What is the freaking chance of that? The only 2 people I know with one get knocked up.

[babygrl1234 6]

So are you saying that when you had your 6 week ultrasound and saw her heart beating you did not think that she was alive?

Her heart would have been beating because it was in my body. If she was not in my body there would be no beating.

[tink128 0]

Here's what I believe and honestly everyone has the right to their own opinion but please be totally informed on both sides of the issue and make an intelligent informed choice!

So here it goes.....

What is the rhetorical ploy at work here? Abortion supporters compare unfavorably the life of one human being (the unborn child) with the "right" to live without the temporary condition of nine months of pregnancy. The result is that the temporary condition and its inconveniences trumps the child's very right to exist. This way of thinking threatens everyones right to live. Determining who shall live and who shall die has become completely arbitrary. Reason and historic experience teaches us that unless we protect the rights of others, our own rights soon diminish as well. Abortion supporters have simply defined the unborn out of existence. Or, more specifically, they contend nobody can know "when human life begins." It is not a mere opinion that two bodies are involved in this decision but a scientific fact. It is important to understand that a surprising number of people have convinced themselves that the unborn child is not a separate human being, meaning the entire focus is on the mother. The unborn child is the smallest, least seen among us, and thus, is the most vulnerable and therefore in need of our protection. All her genetic definition of who she is for now and always - - the color of her eyes, her hair, how tall she will grow to be - - was present at the moment of fertilization. Therefore, in every abortion a helpless someone dies. Most women feel trapped into their abortions. Women who have had them report extreme guilt grief and remorse after having an abortion Why? Because they are aware a life has just been taken. Women usually make their decision with little or no accurate information about their pregnancy or knowledge that assistance is available for them from the over 3,000 pro-life mother-helping centers around the country. They aren't really in control of anything if they do not have the right to know the whole truth before they have an abortion. Anyone who supports "choice" surely should support an informed choice in this context as well. Attempts to pass protective legislation insuring that women are given information about risks and alternatives to abortion and scientifically accurate information about the developing unborn child are routinely opposed and challenged by "pro-choicers". There is a real insult to women's intelligence in that fact. As women, we believe that perhaps the greatest crime committed against women by the legalization of abortion is the ugly idea that our ability to bear children is a punishment or a failure on our part. That notion has sent a message to three generations of women that they must - - at all costs - - reject their own children if they are going to avert failure. Women have to stop apologizing for the fact that they bear children. As long as women give into the expectation that they ought to kill their children in order to get further in this world (that is, compete equally with men), they really are "second-class" citizens.

The only reasonable perspective is that every human being's life must be protected from the moment of fertilization until natural death. It cannot be subject to the arbitrary whims of others, or soon each of us will find ourselves or our loved ones being defined out of existence. "Who dies?"

[anonemouse 1]

Very well put. Science, nature, everything we see, points to a creator. The very conception of human life as wonderful and miraculous as it is, points to a creator. Evolution is just a theory whereas creationism points to all things seen and unseen factual hard evidence that we can touch see smell, taste and hear. Therefore those of us who do believe in intelligent design do definately embrace scientific evidence of a creator. I do appreciate your valued opinion.

As a scientist, I respectfully disagree. Science does NOT point to a creator. And as a scientist, I've learned to disregard the opinions of people who say "evolution is just a theory." It shows that they know nothing about science and probably nothing about evolutionary theory. Let me let you in on a little secret: A scientific "theory" and a common-language "theory" aren't the same thing. A scientific theory is backed up by lots and lots of evidence. Otherwise, it would be called a hypothesis. A common-language "theory" has basically the same definition as "idea." It's a possible solution, with little or no evidence supporting it. A common-language "theory" is the same as the scientific "hypothesis." Evolution isn't called "the hypothesis of evolution." It's called "the theory of evolution."

[Alexandra 55]

So are you saying that when you had your 6 week ultrasound and saw her heart beating you did not think that she was alive?

For what it's worth, in both of my pregnancies there was no heartbeat detected until I had ultrasounds at 13 and 14 weeks. The doppler in the gyno's office couldn't hear anything through my ample flesh.

[TommyO 5]

tink, I think your post along with many of the posts on this thread are great examples of how far apart the two sides are in the abortion debate. Before I go any further I should make it clear that I am Pro-Choice although I am no fan of abortion. The words you choose are very interesting especially in light of the fact that you are asking everyone to "please be totally informed on both sides of the issue and make an intelligent informed choice"

I am pro choice based on two simple principles, No matter my opinion of abortion I have no right to exert my will on others and I do not believe that life begins at conception but rather at birth.

I applaud the work that the Pro Life movement does to support and help pregnant women who do not want to keep their babies. I feel strongly that this where they should concentrate their efforts. By doing this many more abortions would be prevented.

At the end of the day abortion is legal and it will continue to be so. To make statements that imply that the other side is bad or to state that legalizing abortion implies that bearing children is a punishment seems odd to me. I read your remarks and although I am certain that you are sincere in your beliefs I also feel that the the folks on other side of the argument are much the same.

I know that most of the people who have posted on this thread are not card carrying members of the Pro-Life or Pro-Choice movements and much of this discusion is just the opinions of honest hard working individuals with an opinion. I hope I don't insult anyone when I say this but here goes. Generally I find both groups somewhat unscroupulous, they both use key words and phrases that paint the other side as evil and bad. We here phrases like Anti Choice and Pro Death being lobbed across the battlefield as each side vilifies the other. In my opinion, if you dislike someone because they have a different opinion then you than you are the problem.

I have already been given up on once because I choose to believe a different set of values once in this thread. It is a slipery slope we head down when we refer to others in this fashion as it allows us to hate.

I don't think I need to point out what terrible things people will feel compelled to do to those they hate. There have been many terrible acts performed by people who believe they are only riding the world of those who are evil and stained.

[sweetviolet 0]

I am pro choice!! While I was 7 months pregnant with my 3rd child (now 27) I spoke on the house floor in the state iof Illinois for a pro choice event....my views have not changed in those 27yrs...better to offer a choice than to have the pregnant woman die in a back street abortion!! we ARE speaking about life here, are we not?? That includes the life of the lifes host--the pregnant WOMAN. Men, unless they are the barers of babies, should just stand by and be supportive--not decision makers!! Just my 2 cents worth!!

[gadgetlady 4]

And of course on the flip side, we need to outlaw mastrabation by men, and any birth control at all, right?

Uhhh, no. Because masturbation (by men OR women) and birth control don't STOP a beating heart.

[gadgetlady 4]

Out of curiousity....

Do you believe in the theory of evolution or that in the begininning God created the heavens and the earth? Science points to evolution while religion points to God.

Maybe it is a bit off topic but if you don't believe in the scientific theory of evolution then why can you use a scientific definition to define life? Can you just pull bits and piece of what you like to support your argument but throw away what goes against the things you believe?

Nice try. Science can clearly determine WHEN an entity separate from the mother is created. When the sperm and the egg join, a separate entity with its own DNA is created. There is absolutely no question about that. We can argue about whether that entity has value or not, or when it's viable, or when it should have rights (in fact, that's what we do argue about), but the scientific, undisputed fact is that the entity is a wholly separate being at that moment. Any scientist who tells you that the inception of human being's life is at some time other than conception is lying, trying to evade the issue, or trying to support a political agenda. You cannot start at birth, count backwards, and pinpoint something OTHER than conception as the time when that life began.

Science cannot without question determine WHEN the earth (or the universe) began. We can't go back and study it every moment of every day. We can't put the earth under a microscope and pinpoint when the new DNA (or in the case of the earth, the components of its makeup) comes into existence. We CAN do that with human life. We DO do that with human life.

[gadgetlady 4]

For what it's worth, in both of my pregnancies there was no heartbeat detected until I had ultrasounds at 13 and 14 weeks. The doppler in the gyno's office couldn't hear anything through my ample flesh.

That's a great point! Just because the doppler couldn't pick it up, does that mean it wasn't there? Just because we don't have a window to the womb, does that mean there isn't a baby?