who supports right to choose

[Daffodil 0]

Oh gross, you believe in pornography and killing 35 year old men? You're too much!!!

I'm waiting for you to mention the words blood, killing, murder a few more times. It'll make it so much more true. Bring on the bloody videos, get as graphic as you wish. Death, destruction, murdered babies lying in the streets. Whores killing babies. Whores using abortion for birth control. Death, destruction, blood, murder. Wow. Deep thoughts....

Now don't be childish. You know I was using those examples to make a point. Please try to debate honestly.

[gadgetlady 4]

I'll go even further and say that one of the women is definitely wrong and one of the women is definitely right.

Wow. That's big of you. So you're saying it's either a life or it's not, so there is a possibility that in having an abortion, a woman is killing a human being. Doesn't it then make sense that we should make every effort possible to determine if she is or not?

I have a couple of simple questions for you (I wonder if you'll actually answer them)

How snide. When have I NOT answered questions about this issue?

Why are you the one who gets to decide which woman is right?

You've asked this before and I've answered it before. I don't get to decide. I am not a judge. Judges get to decide. I support judges who will decide based on scientific facts about human life.

Why do you get to pass laws forcing your view on the woman who disagrees with you?

I am not a politician, so I don't get to pass laws. I can certainly vote on laws, when appropriately presented to me, but I don't pass laws. It's not within my purvue.

I hope you don't try to answer these questions by saying, "Oh. look at the video with the little hands, the little feet, how could it not be life." That is a totally meaningless answer that does not answer the question. Other people may look at the same video and conclude that it is not life as that term is defined for them. I'm not asking you for your own, personal, emotional response to a video, or a list of the stages a fetus goes through, and what week the blood starts pumping, etc. None of those things "prove" that the woman is carrying a life. You may consider those things to be proof, but others do not.

What, then, PROVES when something is a human life? Why is a black person not 3/5 of a person, but rather a full person. Why are Jews considered human life? Talk about not answering questions, why won't you answer those? How do you define human life? Who are you to disagree with the slave owners and the laws that were en force indicating that a black person was 3/5 of a person? If they wanted to own a slave, who are you to decide for them? Why was what Hitler did wrong? He considered the Jews (and others) to be sub-standard. With what criteria do you argue they were not? What is wrong with the Nobel Prize-winning scientist who believes infants should be killed if they don't meet certain standards within the first few weeks of life? I seriously doubt YOU will answer these questions. And don't try to answer with "it's obvious that THOSE people are human beings" because it was NOT obvious to the people who enslaved them, exterminated them, or believe they should be "euthanized".

Your basic argument is that it should all be left up to interpretation. Look at history. Look what happened when people were allowed to decide for others whether the others' lives had value -- or whether they should even be defined as entities belonging to the human race.

I rather doubt that you will give honest answers that actually address the specific questions I am asking, but I guess it's worth a shot.

Right back at ya'.

[gadgetlady 4]

Btw, some people might see certain images of an early fertilized egg's progression as looking like a fish. But no one suggests that it is proof that a human fertilized embryo is definitely a fish (or a maybe a frog when full term.) So all this discussion of clumps of cells and what they look like in early stages isn't a convincing argument that proves exactly when a human being is a life that is due all the consideration and rights that every human being is entitled to have.

Watch the video, BJean, and tell me again it's a clump of cells.

For many women facing the decision of abortion, the decision hinges not on whether the fertilized egg is a POTENTIAL life or a COMPLETE life at that point.

There is no such thing as a potential life. It's either life or it isn't. For that matter, what the heck is a COMPLETE life? A fully matured life? I don't think anyone is there yet! Is it a life with all organs fully developed? Then I guess no one is really alive until they reach puberty, because sex organs aren't fully matured until then.

We are all in various stages of life. We are lives WITH POTENTIAL. But there is no such thing as a potential life. If it's a life, it's a life. If it isn't a life, there is the potential to create a life, but there is no potential life.

[BJean 16]

Well that's easy. An embryo is not a living breathing human being. It is a parasite, requiring a host for survival and growth. It can't commit murder. It can't participate in porn. It can't drive or take drugs without its' host providing it. It can't make decisions between right and wrong. It isn't a person. It is a fertilized egg, developing into an embryo, developing into a prenatal person, eventually becoming a living, breathing human being.

You will never, ever convince the majority of people that women who must choose to have an abortion are murderers. Say it anyway you like. Get as graphic as you wish. We just don't BELIEVE the way you do. That's because you are wrong. You may believe that your beliefs about this make you a better person, but you are wrong about that too. Screaming from the rooftops won't make you more believable. Neither will insults and rabid analogies. You have your beliefs, other Americans have different beliefs. This is America. It isn't Iran. We don't all have to listen and do what you say when it comes to our bodies and our medical care. God Bless America!

[BJean 16]

Seen the movie, read the book. It's a guppy.

[gadgetlady 4]

I am astonished by your view of moral relativity. In your view, NO act is inherently evil..after all, if it isn't evil to me, why should anyone make a law against what I want to do? Rape, murder, car theft

The pro-abortion response to this will be, "but it's OBVIOUS that THOSE things are wrong!" -- which is, of course, missing the point entirely, because it's not always obvious to those who commit the crimes. Just as it wasn't obvious to Hitler and the SS troops and it wasn't obvious to the slave owners and it isn't obvious to the "distinguished" men below who support infanticide:

“There is little evidence that termination of an infant’s life in the first few months following extraction from the womb could be looked upon as murder... It would seem to be more ‘inhumane’ to kill an adult chimpanzee than a newborn baby, since the chimpanzee has greater mental awareness. Murder cannot logically apply to a life form with less mental awareness than a primate.”

Winston L. Duke

Article: The New Biology

Reason magazine, August 1972

“No newborn infant should be declared human until it has passed certain tests regarding its genetic endowment and if it fails these tests, it forfeits the right to life.”

Dr. Francis Crick

Nobel Prize winner

Pacific News Service, January, 1978

“In our book, Should the Baby Live, my colleague Helga Kuhse and I suggested that a period of 28 days after birth might be allowed before an infant is accepted as having the same right to life as others.”

Peter Singer

Professor of Bio-Ethics

Princeton University

“It is reasonable to describe infanticide as post-natal abortion... Infanticide is actually a very humane thing when you are dealing with misbegotten infants. We might have to encourage it under certain conditionalities of excess population especially when you’re dealing with defective children.”

Joseph Fletcher

Professor of Ethics

Harvard Divinity School

Infanticide and the Value of Life,

Prometheus books, 1978

“Infanticide has a logical continuity with abortion and even with contraception.”

Edward Pohlman, Researcher

Planned Parenthood

Psychology of Birth Planning

Shankman Publishing

Cambridge MA, 1967

“If a child were not declared alive until three days after birth, then all parents could be allowed the choice that only a few are given under the present system. The doctor could allow the child to die if the parents so chose and save a lot of misery and suffering.”

Dr. James D. Watson

Nobel Prize winner

Time magazine, May 28, 1973

Moral relativism is, indeed, scary.

[Daffodil 0]

Wow. That's big of you. So you're saying it's either a life or it's not, so there is a possibility that in having an abortion, a woman is killing a human being. Doesn't it then make sense that we should make every effort possible to determine if she is or not?

How snide. When have I NOT answered questions about this issue?

You've asked this before and I've answered it before. I don't get to decide. I am not a judge. Judges get to decide. I support judges who will decide based on scientific facts about human life.

I am not a politician, so I don't get to pass laws. I can certainly vote on laws, when appropriately presented to me, but I don't pass laws. It's not within my purvue.

What, then, PROVES when something is a human life? Why is a black person not 3/5 of a person, but rather a full person. Why are Jews considered human life? Talk about not answering questions, why won't you answer those? How do you define human life? Who are you to disagree with the slave owners and the laws that were en force indicating that a black person was 3/5 of a person? If they wanted to own a slave, who are you to decide for them? Why was what Hitler did wrong? He considered the Jews (and others) to be sub-standard. With what criteria do you argue they were not? What is wrong with the Nobel Prize-winning scientist who believes infants should be killed if they don't meet certain standards within the first few weeks of life? I seriously doubt YOU will answer these questions. And don't try to answer with "it's obvious that THOSE people are human beings" because it was NOT obvious to the people who enslaved them, exterminated them, or believe they should be "euthanized".

Your basic argument is that it should all be left up to interpretation. Look at history. Look what happened when people were allowed to decide for others whether the others' lives had value -- or whether they should even be defined as entities belonging to the human race.

Right back at ya'.

Gadgetlady, you are phenomenal ! The idea of moral relativism which is held by many is frightening. Hopefully the Court will decide this issue once and for all. I believe just as Americans in 2007 look back in repentence and astonishment at our country's endorsement of slavery and the denial of basic rights to minorities, we will someday look back at 2007 and say "how did we allow those 30 million developing human lives to be destroyed because they were inconvenient?" But how many million more must be killed before we issue that wail? These pro-abortion people are almost inhuman, ironically, while they glibly talk about their rights, while denying the right of life to a growing human person.

[BJean 16]

The Court did decide this once and for all. You just won't accept it.

[gadgetlady 4]

You will never, ever convince the majority of people that women who must choose to have an abortion are murderers. Say it anyway you like. Get as graphic as you wish.

I never expected to convince you. I do believe, however, that people with open minds willing to explore the evidence and who don't have an emotional attachment to abortion can change their minds.

[BJean 16]

We undoubtedly will be looking back on 2007 in horror, over all the human beings sacrificed by this administration.

[Daffodil 0]

Well that's easy. An embryo is not a living breathing human being. It is a parasite, requiring a host for survival and growth. It can't commit murder. It can't participate in porn. It can't drive or take drugs without its' host providing it. It can't make decisions between right and wrong. It isn't a person. It is a fertilized egg, developing into an embryo, developing into a prenatal person, eventually becoming a living, breathing human being.

You will never, ever convince the majority of people that women who must choose to have an abortion are murderers. Say it anyway you like. Get as graphic as you wish. We just don't BELIEVE the way you do. That's because you are wrong. You may believe that your beliefs about this make you a better person, but you are wrong about that too. Screaming from the rooftops won't make you more believable. Neither will insults and rabid analogies. You have your beliefs, other Americans have different beliefs. This is America. It isn't Iran. We don't all have to listen and do what you say when it comes to our bodies and our medical care. God Bless America!

You cannot legally fill your body with illegal drugs. You cannot use your body to sell sex on the street corner. You cannot legally inject your body with Laetril. Laws govern your body everyday. Do what you wish with your body...your developing child is separate from your body...your child has DNA you don't. Stop believing that child has no right to live unless you find it is convenient. You are not a mother if you kill your child. You are a murderer. For the rest of your life. No matter how you deny it, in the dark of the night, in the secrecy of your inner thoughts, you know you stopped your child's beating heart.

[gadgetlady 4]

Gadgetlady, you are phenomenal ! The idea of moral relativism which is held by many is frightening. Hopefully the Court will decide this issue once and for all. I believe just as Americans in 2007 look back in repentence and astonishment at our country's endorsement of slavery and the denial of basic rights to minorities, we will someday look back at 2007 and say "how did we allow those 30 million developing human lives to be destroyed because they were inconvenient?" But how many million more must be killed before we issue that wail? These pro-abortion people are almost inhuman, ironically, while they glibly talk about their rights, while denying the right of life to a growing human person.

You know what's incredible? In the US it's illegal to destroy the egg of a bald eagle. Pretty much everyone understands this -- even those in favor of abortion. Destroying the developing little bald eagle means taking the life of something we as a country, for whatever reason, value. How screwed up are our values when we can't destroy a developing bald eagle but we can destroy a developing human being?

[gadgetlady 4]

I do want to add one thing. While I fully believe abortion takes the life of a human being and is therefore murder, I also believe that many women are deluded at their time of intense emotion and crisis by the pro-abortion movement. I know there are women who specifically ask whether if what they're carrying is a baby, and they're told it is not -- that it's a clump of cells, a blob of tissue, a product of conception -- and they're never informed about the reality of what's going on in the womb. Since an unplanned pregnancy is very often a very scary thing for a lot of women, being given what is presented as an "easy out", like having a tooth pulled, is something the grasp at very quicky. Human beings often make very bad decisions at times of crisis in their lives. That is why I don't condemn these women, the other victims of abortion; they need to heal and they need to be loved.

[BJean 16]

Once again gadget you are very wrong. I do not have an attachment to abortion. I have an attachment to religious freedom. I have an attachment to women's rights to their own bodies. I have an attachment to not having Americans telling other Americans how to live their lives. I have an attachment to Democracy.

Abortion is a symbol. A very powerful symbol of things that are going terribly wrong in this country. Things that are utterly terrifiying. Things that continue to prove that our enemies might just be right about us. I want us to be a strong country and an example of religious freedom to the whole world. I want us to prove how well a democratic nation can work and to be an example for other countries to emulate. I want all the hate, bigotry, social injustice, name-calling and hatefulness to stop. I desperately want a new president and a better administration to lead this country. One that is not derisive and self-centered as this one has proven itself to be.

I want Americans to stop telling Americans that they are bad people because they do not share the same beliefs. I want many things for this country. Making abortion illegal is not one of the things I want for us. I have lived through the age when abortion was illegal. It did not work. It was horrible. Making abortion illegal is not the answer to any problem.

If you work your heart out, as you've said you do, to counsel women, assist them in their decision making and helping them arrange adoptions, if absolutely necessary, then you are contributing to the greater good. Voting to make abortion illegal is contributing to what is wrong in America.

[Daffodil 0]

The Court did decide this once and for all. You just won't accept it.

Oh my goodness, Miss Bjean, please study history ! Tell us, was slavery legal ? Did the courts rule in favor of segregation, "separate but equal"? Did the courts declare a black person 3/5ths of a person? The answer to all of the questions is yes. And did the courts reverse ALL those decisions? Of course they did. Do you then really think the abortion question is settled for all times? Think about it. I don't. I believe the Alito court has, and will continue to, chip away incrementally at the disingenuous decision of Roe until the right of the developing fetus to sustain LIFE is codified.