who supports right to choose

[rodriguezequal 3]

You are an exception. Not very many girls are 7 when they get their periods. They are much older and more developed. This is from womens'health.gov:

When does a girl usually get her first period?

In the United States, the average age for a girl to get her first period is 12. This does not mean that all girls start at the same age. A girl can start her period anytime between the ages of 8 and 15. Most of the time, the first period starts about 2 years after breasts first start to develop. If a girl has not had her first period by age 15, or if it has been more than 2 to 3 years since breast growth started, she should see a doctor.

So, you see, you are not even on their list of being acceptable for a girl to have her period.(age 7) Therefore, it was very unusual for such a thing to happen. But it did, so if your doctor said that you would not be able to carry a baby or deliver it without dying, then having an abortion would have been the best thing for you to do to save your life.

So in your eyes since god believes a child is able to have birth then does that make it ok for a man to have sex with a child?

It is not okay for a man to have sex with a child. Men should not have sex with anyone except their wife. If they are married at age 13, then, yes, it is okay to have sex together. They are husband and wife. People in other countries and cultures get married at an age that Americans would call "child". Americans made the age limit for being an adult "18". God made the age limit at the time a girl gets her menstrual cycle and a boy goes through puberty. Then they become women and men. Before that, they are children.

Kind of looks like you brought up the topic of marraige...

[pattygreen 5]

I guess I realize why no one else is willing to get sucked into your religious vomit. I am so tired of you turning everything around. I was just responding to things you said. I'm not willing to go further into this conversation about marraige because we don't share the same views and you are not willing to listen to others. It does not say that the youngest reported is 8...I got this quote from more than one website: usually starting between the ages of 8 and 13. All About Menstruation

Monthly periods begin when a girl reaches puberty around age 10 to 14. It can happen a little earlier or later depending on the individual. Menstruation | Faze Health

The difference between you and I is that you are willing to change words and see what isn't there...I post it exactly as I read it. It says nothing about 8 being the youngest reported in fact....the youngest was even younger than I was! snopes.com: Youngest Mother

What does any of this have to do with anthing anyway? Did you think I was calling you a liar, or something? I wasn't. I was stating that you are a rarity. USUALLY, again I will say it, USUALLY menstrual cycles start between the ages of 8 and 15. 8 being the young end, 15 the older end. So what, you were 7. I'm not saying you were lying. I'm saying your age for getting your period was VERY young.(compared to the average age of 12)

[pattygreen 5]

You are an exception. Not very many girls are 7 when they get their periods. They are much older and more developed. This is from womens'health.gov:

When does a girl usually get her first period?

In the United States, the average age for a girl to get her first period is 12. This does not mean that all girls start at the same age. A girl can start her period anytime between the ages of 8 and 15. Most of the time, the first period starts about 2 years after breasts first start to develop. If a girl has not had her first period by age 15, or if it has been more than 2 to 3 years since breast growth started, she should see a doctor.

So, you see, you are not even on their list of being acceptable for a girl to have her period.(age 7) Therefore, it was very unusual for such a thing to happen. But it did, so if your doctor said that you would not be able to carry a baby or deliver it without dying, then having an abortion would have been the best thing for you to do to save your life.

Kind of looks like you brought up the topic of marraige...

The conversation flowed that way. When people talk together, sometimes it can sway to other topics and when it did, YOU stated this:

That is exactly why the divorce rate is so high in the US. Do you really think a 13 year okd is ready for marraige? Aso if you do your research most of the young girls getting married in other countries/cultures are doing so against their CHOICE! Most are arranged weddings and they don't believe in your god...so I don't get the comparrison

So, if you wanted to stay on topic, why did you make this comment afterwards? Obviously you wanted to say something about my comments on marriage. So, don't blame me for going off topic.

[BJean 16]

Me: "... as it relates to every other woman and what they believe, it's fine for you to make your beliefs known to them but you are not our creator and you have absolutely no business telling them whether they are doing the right thing if they choose to have an abortion, no matter what their personal circumstances are."

You: "I never claimed to be your creator. God gives me the right to tell others about what he has to say on issues. To say that I have "no business" to do so on a thread entitled "who supports the right to choose" is ridiculous. If we saw each other on the street or something and I overheard your conversation about having an abortion, then it would not be my business to tell you anything. But here, this is what we are discussing, so it is my business. If someone were to ask me what I felt about abortions and why, I would tell them."

No, that's not what you want to do. You want to make laws that reflect your personal beliefs on this issue. It isn't that you just want to tell people what you believe and what you've decided that God has said on the subject, you want to legislate what you believe to the point that it is as if you think you're God Himself. You use His name and you say you're using His words but it's you who wants to rule us and they are YOUR words you're using.

If God wanted to rule us in that way, then He would. He didn't choose you to rein us all in and have us follow you and your teachings. Everyone does not believe that God spoke to us through the Bible. And He, no matter how convinced you are of it, DID NOT write, nor did he actually speak to be quoted, in the Bible.

Talking about an issue is one thing - labout this or any other topic like gun control or capital punishment or legalizing drugs - everyone is free to give an opinion and reveal their beliefs. But when you decide that your beliefs should be the law of the land and they are simply your beliefs with no basis in science or even good sense, then we have to draw the line.

[pattygreen 5]

Me: "... as it relates to every other woman and what they believe, it's fine for you to make your beliefs known to them but you are not our creator and you have absolutely no business telling them whether they are doing the right thing if they choose to have an abortion, no matter what their personal circumstances are."

You: "I never claimed to be your creator. God gives me the right to tell others about what he has to say on issues. To say that I have "no business" to do so on a thread entitled "who supports the right to choose" is ridiculous. If we saw each other on the street or something and I overheard your conversation about having an abortion, then it would not be my business to tell you anything. But here, this is what we are discussing, so it is my business. If someone were to ask me what I felt about abortions and why, I would tell them."

No, that's not what you want to do. You want to make laws that reflect your personal beliefs on this issue. It isn't that you just want to tell people what you believe and what you've decided that God has said on the subject, you want to legislate what you believe to the point that it is as if you think you're God Himself. You use His name and you say you're using His words but it's you who wants to rule us and they are YOUR words you're using.

If God wanted to rule us in that way, then He would. He didn't choose you to rein us all in and have us follow you and your teachings. Everyone does not believe that God spoke to us through the Bible. And He, no matter how convinced you are of it, DID NOT write, nor did he actually speak to be quoted, in the Bible.

Talking about an issue is one thing - labout this or any other topic like gun control or capital punishment or legalizing drugs - everyone is free to give an opinion and reveal their beliefs. But when you decide that your beliefs should be the law of the land and they are simply your beliefs with no basis in science or even good sense, then we have to draw the line.

Why is that? YOUR belief is that every woman should be able to decide for herself whether she wants to kill her baby or not. You are allowed to have that belief AND you made it into a law. Whose to say I can't do the same thing? I believe that stealing from people should be a law because GOD SAID it is wrong to steal from people. It is also a law that we have. There are MANY laws that are in force today that GOD SAID should be law. Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not lie under oath, thou shalt not hurt or harm others, etc. These are examples of laws that we have in place because God said so. Yet, this law, about aborting a baby, you don't agree with God on, so you cast out what he says. How unfaithful!

[pattygreen 5]

bjean quote: No, that's not what you want to do. You want to make laws that reflect your personal beliefs on this issue.

And YOU want to make laws that reflect your personal beliefs on issues. This one and any other ones. We ALL do. We ALL try to vote for candidates who will make laws that we agree with. Thia is why we vote.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Those laws aren't laws just because of what your God said. In God's days they also said if someone stole it was ok to cut off their hand...or that it was ok to stone someone or kill all the first born...why is it ok for God to take the lives of babies and children and fetuses, but we can't make that choice...this is exactly why I cannot buy into the words of the Bible...it's just ridiculous!

[pattygreen 5]

Those laws aren't laws just because of what your God said. In God's days they also said if someone stole it was ok to cut off their hand...or that it was ok to stone someone or kill all the first born...why is it ok for God to take the lives of babies and children and fetuses, but we can't make that choice...this is exactly why I cannot buy into the words of the Bible...it's just ridiculous!

Because they are his. He created us and he can do as he pleases with us. They don't belong to you, and therefore, you can not take another's life from them. You may not understand because you do not have the mind of God. But you can figure Him out if you dare to get close to him through reading his word. To God, time is not an issue. We live in a world that is governed by time, but God does not live in that kind of world. When God takes a life from this earth to be with him in Heaven, it seems like an eternity to us before we see them again in Heaven, but this is not so for God. He says that our lives are but a breath to him. This time on earth is like breathing one breath in and out as far as God is concerned. Time is nothing to him. One of my favorite sayings of God's is: "Precious in the sight of God is the death of His saints." In the bible, the definition of a saint is anyone who believes in Jesus. He loves it when people who love him die , for they go home to be with him forever. Just as we love it when our children are born into this world, God loves it when they die and go into Heaven to be with him. The bible teaches that babies and children are as saints when they die. They go directly to Heaven. Those who are older must make a decision as to where they will go when they die. In one sense, babies are better off if they die before reaching the age of being accountable to God for their choices. They will go to Heaven and begin a life of eternity with Him and the others who have died believing in Him. The abortion thing has its plus side for the baby, as far as their eternal destination is concerned, but the horrific way they must die is just terrible. And the fact that they can't experience what it's like to live a life here on earth, for it was cut short. And what's most important is the mother will have to answer to God for her deed one day. Unless she asks for His forgiveness before she dies.

So, you see, God can take the lives of His children, because he is the author and finisher of every humans life. We can not take anothers life, because HE is the finisher, not us.

[rodriguezequal 3]

So God can take the lives of his "children" because he created them...sooooo a man and a woman being the creator of their own children can also take their lives...? This is why I can't stomach the thought of your spiteful, inconsistant God...I can't believe in someone who can allow so much destruction and evil in the world...it's sad and disgusting

[pattygreen 5]

So God can take the lives of his "children" because he created them...sooooo a man and a woman being the creator of their own children can also take their lives...? This is why I can't stomach the thought of your spiteful, inconsistant God...I can't believe in someone who can allow so much destruction and evil in the world...it's sad and disgusting

Man and woman can create NOTHING. They are not creators. Only God creates.

Death is not evil. People are born every day and people die every day. That's life.

How is God spiteful and inconsistant?

You don't have to believe in God. That's just how wonderful God is. He gives all mankind the freedom to believe or not believe in Him. He doesn't want anyone in His family that doesn't love Him or want anything to do with Him. He wants those who love him and believe in Him to be in His family. Those who do will have eternal life.

The only reason that there is destruction and evil in the world is because of man, not God. Think about it. Mankind is the one who brings it on himself, either by his own doing or through his own or someone elses sin. We reap what we sow.

[BJean 16]

As Rodriquez said, we don't put laws into effect because they are reflecting what God "said" in the Bible. Sorry to burst your bubble. But you definitely seem to live in one. A small, contained bubble of thought and beliefs.

We pass laws because they keep us all from running over each other on the streets; to keep us from thinking it's all right to take other people's belongings; to keep us from killing our enemies; to have a structure for us so that we can hopefully live in peace in this very populated world.

My beliefs on a woman's right to choose whether or not to procreate will absolutely in no way infringe upon your beliefs. Your desire to make abortion illegal definitely infringes upon my beliefs. We're not only talking about keeping religion out of our government, we're also talking about keeping our Constitution REAL. Making laws that do not take away the constitutional rights of others to live their lives.

We don't have laws because of God. We just do not. We have them because we are a civilized society. And we try to make our laws that are fair to everyone as much as possible because that's what our Constitution and Bill of Rights promise. That's why our forefathers came here and why they wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights the way they did. Not to please God. They did it to make this a free country, where people do not have to live by any rules set up by one particular religious doctrine. They were intentinoally very open and explicit about separation of church and state. Why can't you understand that? Why do you continue to argue they wanted a nativity on the courthouse lawn?

[pattygreen 5]

[bjean QUOTE]We pass laws because they keep us all from running over each other on the streets; to keep us from thinking it's all right to take other people's belongings; to keep us from killing our enemies; to have a structure for us so that we can hopefully live in peace in this very populated world.

Right! We pass laws to keep humans from harm or death. A baby in the womb is a human that needs to be kept safe. That's why a law should be passed to keep them safe!

[pattygreen 5]

[bjean QUOTE] My beliefs on a woman's right to choose whether or not to procreate will absolutely in no way infringe upon your beliefs.

It is my belief that every human life deserves protection from harm from other human beings. Your having an abortion infrings on my right to protect other humans from murder.

[pattygreen 5]

[bjeanQUOTE] We don't have laws because of God. We just do not. We have them because we are a civilized society. And we try to make our laws that are fair to everyone as much as possible because that's what our Constitution and Bill of Rights promise. That's why our forefathers came here and why they wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights the way they did. Not to please God. They did it to make this a free country, where people do not have to live by any rules set up by one particular religious doctrine. They were intentinoally very open and explicit about separation of church and state. Why can't you understand that? Why do you continue to argue they wanted a nativity on the courthouse lawn?

God wrote his laws down for mankind to know right from wrong in the beginning, when he created us. If it were not for his laws, you would have no basis to understand what is right and what is wrong. We would all just do as our own heart desires and make laws unto ourselves by our own will. In the beginning, man followed God's laws. Then as time went on, they drifted a little bit away from following them and began to make the laws into whatever they felt was right at the time. Then more time went on and the laws veered farther away from what was right. And this pattern is still continuing today. But mankind is turning the other way now. What God deems wrong, man sees as perfectly right. What God deems right, man sees as wrong. Look at homosexuality. This at one time would not ever even be considered as a perfectly normal act. Now, if you don't accept it as 'normal' and perfectly fine, you are called homophobic or worse, told that not being accepting of gays is equal to being all for segregation. (which is untrue, BTW, cause being black is not sinful, therefore, the segregation of blacks was definitely wrong. And being gay is a sin, so the 2 things are not even close to being a comparison)

The abortion issue is not a religious issue, BTW. Just because most people who oppose it use the bible to back up their belief that the fetus is a human life, doesn't mean that it is a religious issue. It is an issue that has to do with murdering others that can't defend themselves. Science has shown that babies are alive. Where there is blood, there is life.

[rodriguezequal 3]

A fetus is a human in the making...do we have tails? Do we have flippers? No...You are demanding people not destroy cells that are "living", but not yet alive. When you are dead the blood has to be drained from your body. Are you a vegetarian...animals have blood. Have you killed a bug...they have blood. A lot of things have blood....that doesn't make them illegal to "kill". This is like trying to destroy skin cells or hair folicles...you are making this a religious issure because otherwise you would have no way to argue your side. You hide behind your God and you wrap him around you like a little protective coat, but you just end up looking like you're wrapped in a straight jacket...sorry, but that's how I feel. I do not press my beliefs on people at all...if you want to believe in your god that's great, but don't attempt to make me feel/look like a bad person because I don't.

Edited July 1, 2010 by rodriguezequal