who supports right to choose

[LeighaMason 19]

I see it this way: You either believe all he says or none of it, but you can't believe only the part that you think makes sense to you and discard what you feel doesn't make sense.

All God says is true.

If what you say above is true and All God says is true and God wrote the Bible which that says:

JAMES 2 14-

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Then the logical conclusion is that your argument that faith is enough to get you to heaven is not right.

[pattygreen 5]

I've already gone over this before.

So, on the basis of that scripture alone, how many deeds will save you and get you into heaven? One good deed? Like praying for someone? Or two good deeds? Like giving to the poor and reading your bible? How about 3 good deeds? More? How many? Just what kind of deeds are needed to be done to get into Heaven? Is simply holding the door for someone enough, or should we shoot for giving 1/2 of all you earn to Charities that help people? Where do we draw the line?

You see, if you become a believer in Jesus, you will also desire to do good. You won't be able to be perfect, but your desire to do good will be there, for God will give it to you. That's why the verse says "those who seek after righteousness will be filled." For if you desire it, you will be filled. God wants us to desire to do good, all the while knowing that we can't be good. Thus the need for Jesus.

In the book of James, where you are quoting,(vs 14) he is trying to show the people that to just 'say' or 'claim' you have faith is not proof enough that you are saved. He says "can that kind of faith save him?" What kind of faith is he talking about? the kind that just claims you believe in God. No. it can't. Your good deeds and your example before others will showyour faith in God to be true, for if you are truly born again, you will be transformed into a new person who delights in right living and does not find it a burden to do good.

In other words, if you say you have faith, and your fruits (deeds) do not show that you truly do, then you are as good as dead.

The principle that is taught throughout the gospel is that faith ALONE saves a person. Just look at the man who died on the cross with Jesus. He put his faith in Jesus as his Savior on the cross next to him and that very day Jesus said he would be in Paradise with him. He obviously had no time for any good deeds after he became a Christian.

[LeighaMason 19]

I've already gone over this before.

So, on the basis of that scripture alone, how many deeds will save you and get you into heaven? One good deed? Like praying for someone? Or two good deeds? Like giving to the poor and reading your bible? How about 3 good deeds? More? How many? Just what kind of deeds are needed to be done to get into Heaven? Is simply holding the door for someone enough, or should we shoot for giving 1/2 of all you earn to Charities that help people? Where do we draw the line?

What does the above statement have to do with anything I said? Other than the typical republican response "Where do we draw the line?"

17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

He says it 3 times in 12 verses (just in case you missed it), do you think maybe he meant it?

You see, if you become a believer in Jesus, you will also desire to do good. You won't be able to be perfect, but your desire to do good will be there, for God will give it to you. That's why the verse says "those who seek after righteousness will be filled." This is not in the section we are talking about, stop trying to deflect. What the section that we are discussing said was 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. For if you desire it, you will be filled. God wants us to desire to do good, all the while knowing that we can't be good. Thus the need for Jesus. He also expects deeds see above.

In the book of James, where you are quoting,(vs 14) he is trying to show the people that to just 'say' or 'claim' you have faith is not proof enough that you are saved. He says "can that kind of faith save him?" What kind of faith is he talking about? the kind that just claims you believe in God. No. it can't. Your good deeds and your example before others (I find this phrase to be very telling of your motivation) will showyour faith in God to be true, for if you are truly born again, you will be transformed into a new person who delights in right living and does not find it a burden to do good.

In other words, if you say you have faith, and your fruits (deeds) do not show that you truly do, then you are as good as dead. I dont need you to put the bible "in other words", lets talk about the words the bible is already in. "faith without deeds is dead" these are the words I want to talk about.

The principle that is taught throughout the gospel is that faith ALONE saves a person. (You are the one who said its all or nothing, we are not going to go to the principal of it. We are talking about each line of scripture.)Just look at the man who died on the cross with Jesus. He put his faith in Jesus as his Savior on the cross next to him and that very day Jesus said he would be in Paradise with him. He obviously had no time for any good deeds after he became a Christian. OK if you happen to be the person on the cross next to Jesus do you think that might be considered "special circumstances? Or once more, what happens to one person defines the whole in Patty's world.

I knew you would not be able to admit you were wrong.

Patty says:

You either believe all he says or none of it, but you can't believe only the part that you think makes sense to you and discard what you feel doesn't make sense.

But then she discards the scriptures that I just quoted.

The bible clearly says:

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. What part of "FAITH WITHOUT DEEDS IS DEAD" is not clear to you?

And again:

22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

And again:

17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

It is said three times, because he meant it. You dont get to take the part you like and discard the rest. Its all or nothing.

[pattygreen 5]

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

Can 'fake' faith save someone? If someone 'claims' to have faith, but how they live (deeds) is sinful and wicked and has no love, are they 'really' saved? No, probably not. This in no way makes claim that you need to be good to get to Heaven. A truly saved person will do good, because God transforms their life. (This doesn't mean they will never sin, for that's not possible)What James is saying is that man is justified by his faith , and a 'true' faith will produce good works.

15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, In the same way as what? In the same way that someone claims to be a believer, yet sees someone hungry and ignores him. In that same way if someone claims to be a believer, yet doesn't do good things, his faith is proven not to be genuine. faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

If you claim to have faith, yet your actions (good deeds, such as wishing people well, or feeding others) is not part of your life, then you're not really saved.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

Having a faith in Jesus will produce good deeds (works) in a person, because as we grow in Christ, we will become more like him.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Many people confess to believe in God.(or have faith in God) So what. That doesn't mean they are saved, for even Satan believes in God and ends up in hell. He knows God is real, but knowing that God exists is not the same as asking him to forgive your sins and save you.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

He goes on to list examples of people who had "true, real, genuine, born again faith in God who did good things for others which proved that their faith was real and not just 'words'

21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

What he does proves that he is saved. (but they don't save him) His good works show that he is not just talking. Actions speak louder than words. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? James 2:14-26

True Christians cannot stay persistently untransformed. 2 Cor 3:18 tells us that a true Christian will be progressively transformed to Christ-likeness through the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit that indwells a true believer will see to it that we will gradually conform to the image of Christ. Those who show no evidence of transformation (no good fruits) must be understood that they are not truly Christians. These false Christians are the ones spoken of in Matt 7:13-23. Their destiny would be eternal damnation.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8,9

This verse does not contradict James 2. What apostle James was saying it that a person is justified by what he does and not by dead faith alone. Faith that does not result in good deeds is by no means true faith. So no, it does not contradict with Eph 2:8. In fact, James was affirming what Paul says since James was actually saying something like, “For it is by grace that we have been saved, through true faith, not by phony faith!”

The bible DOES NOT teach us that man can earn eternal life on the basis of works. What the bible does teach us is that God will take the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) and the good deeds by which the light of our faith shines (Matt 5:16), and he will accept them as corroborating evidence of the genuineness of our faith. Good fruit and good deeds do not earn us salvation; they are in fact the result of our salvation, not the cause of it.

Edited April 8, 2010 by pattygreen

[LeighaMason 19]

But as the above post proves, you can not have one with out the other, as you have been claiming over and over. You have been saying that man needs faith alone but now you are saying if he has faith alone that shows his faith is not real. Which is it?

ETA-- I noticed that you left out verse 26, 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. Dont you want to address this one as well?

Edited April 8, 2010 by LeighaMason

[pattygreen 5]

But as the above post proves, you can not have one with out the other, as you have been claiming over and over. You have been saying that man needs faith alone but now you are saying if he has faith alone that shows his faith is not real. Which is it?

Faith alone. Faith is all you need. But once you have it, it will bring forth good fruits, which is the evidence of your faith.

ETA-- I noticed that you left out verse 26, 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. Dont you want to address this one as well?

We are all born with a physical body, and without the Holy Spirit to indwell us (which is what happens when we come to believe and are born again)we will die. For the wages of sin are death. The Holy Spirit cleanses us from these sins, so we who believe in Jesus will be seen just as if we had never sinned. (justified)

So, to explain vs.26, just as the person without the Spirit of God dwelling within him is dead, so a person who claims to have faith in Jesus but has no good works or deeds is also dead. (or only professing to know God and believe in Him, but doesn't really)

Edited April 8, 2010 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

I just want to add that everyone grows in Christ after they are born again, at different paces. Some are born again and immediately change their sinful ways and begin to do good things and shun wrong things. Others may take a few years or even a lifetime of trying to live for God and do what's right in his eyes. We all grow spiritually in our own ways and time. This is why once you confess the faith that's needed, your deeds will follow. You can still be saved without any deeds at all. My mom, who is in the hospital, just today prayed a prayer of faith with me for her salvation. She is very ill and dying, we believe. she is going to be 80 this year and she is very sick. She confessed that she believes in God and asked him to be her Savior. Needless to say, I am very happy that she did this, for now she will go to Heaven. I believe she will not have time in her life, since confessing to have faith in God, to do any good deeds before God takes her home. Yet, because of her prayer, she will be saved. All of her past sins have been forgiven her and she is now one of God's children. He will take care of her. God is wonderful.

[rodriguezequal 3]

We are all born with a physical body, and without the Holy Spirit to indwell us (which is what happens when we come to believe and are born again)we will die. For the wages of sin are death. The Holy Spirit cleanses us from these sins, so we who believe in Jesus will be seen just as if we had never sinned. (justified) So, just as the person without the Spirit of God dwelling withion him is dead, so a person who claims to have faith in Jesus but has no good works or deeds is also dead. (or only professing to know God and believe in Him, but doesn't really)

So then fetuses have no chance after death...they haven't claimed faith or welcomed "God" into them...even if they are innocents and are without sin in your God's eyes not being born again or accepting God is sin...? Confussing I know. So all we have to do is pray after out sinning and all will be forgiven? If that's the case I don't want to be in your heaven with all the "forgiven" child molesters and such

[pattygreen 5]

So then fetuses have no chance after death...they haven't claimed faith or welcomed "God" into them...even if they are innocents and are without sin in your God's eyes not being born again or accepting God is sin...? Confussing I know. So all we have to do is pray after out sinning and all will be forgiven? If that's the case I don't want to be in your heaven with all the "forgiven" child molesters and such

rodriguezequal, It's not 'my' heaven. It's the home God made for everyone who desires to ask God to make them a part of his family.

God teaches that all children will go to Heaven. Each child comes to a point in life, which God himself decides, that they are at "the age of reason" as he calls it. Some believe that because Jesus was at the age of 12 when he began to teach in the temple, which showed his maturity, that 12 is around the age when children can understand right and wrong and make a decision about Jesus. But, that's just what some people believe, the bible does not give a specific age. It just states "children". God knows each childs heart and knows where they are mentally. So, he makes that decision about when they can no longer be counted as a child without understanding. So, every fetus that dies will go to Heaven, for they surely have not reached that age of being able to reason.

If we talk to our Father (pray) after we have sinned in any way and ask Him to forgive us, he will forgive us.

[rodriguezequal 3]

That isn't my heaven! lol. What about mentally challenged/retarded people...when do they have to be "reborn"?

[pattygreen 5]

That isn't my heaven! lol. What about mentally challenged/retarded people...when do they have to be "reborn"?

Just like children who can not reason or understand fully, the mentally challenged can not reason as well. I believe they will be saved due to not maturing and reaching an age of accountability mentally in God's eyes. Sometimes others feel sorry for the mentally challenged among us, yet God has given them a blessing that others may not have. Which is the ability to spend their eternity with God in Heaven without having to have to make the decision to accept God's gift of salvation in this life.

I, personally, can't fathom why anyone would reject God's gift of eternal life and a home in Heaven after we die. I mean, we all die someday. That's an inevitable fact, so why not choose to live with our creator?

[rodriguezequal 3]

Because I would rather be reborn again. I would rather have another life in the world that God created for us.

[rodriguezequal 3]

OMG is it just me or is Bristol Palin and idiot? She needs to just shut her mouth and fade into the back ground and let herself be forgotten! She's just making her and her family look even worse...FAIL! Bristol Palin: Don't get pregnant unless you're privileged - Feministing

[tdslf1 0]

Bristol Palin is a puppet and so is her PR firm. What idiot pays for the services from an 18 years olds PR firm? But those in the know know the business. Her firm is a drainage pipe by which political money gets funnelled to the family. That is what political hacks do. Set up firms and non profit agencies to funnel funds under the table. Legitimate to the firm but paid out the back door to the Palin family. She is immaterial except for this.

[LeighaMason 19]

She's just making her and her family look even worse...FAIL!

Is that possible?