who supports right to choose

[pattygreen 5]

patty: "It is right there in God's word. It's your choice to believe it or not. I choose to embrace it."

Of course you choose to embrace it. It gives you an out for any and everything in this life that you've done that is not right.

I don't see it that way. Since becoming a Christian, I have a greater desire to be sinless. I want to please God, and therefore will try to do the right thing in every area of my life. The nice thing about having him as my Savior is knowing that if I fail him by doing wrong, I am not condemned. He is loving and faithful and will forgive me for my wrongs. This is God's mercy towards us. It's wonderful. Not only does he give us the desire to do good because we love him, he also gives us the "out" ,you want to call it, when we sin. Knowing the Father is a 'win, 'win'.

People like you always like to say: If I'm wrong nothing happens but if I'm right I'm going to heaven and you're not. Nothing happens?

I didn't make the rules. But I like them. I know I can't be good. I accept that fate. I understand that it's not possible to go through this life without doing wrong. Remember how God said, "even the righteous things we do are as filthy rags before him." This shows me that God is sooo Holy and righteous, we can't even look at him, never mind be in his presence in Heaven for all eternity without having our sin removed from us. All man is a liar and a sinner and is in need of someone to save them from their fate. (which is 'death')

Well what if you're wrong? What if you've lived a life believing that you're forgiven of all your sins (like lying to and cheating the government, for instance) and the fact might be that you are NOT forgiven just because you say that you believe in Jesus and accept him as your savior.

If I'm wrong about sin and God's forgiveness, then everyone is wrong, and I'm in the same boat as you. But, not one person can say, "I have never sinned." Not one. For ALL sin.

What if you are wrong? What if it turns out that you've spent a good part of your life thinking that you've been excused of everything. What if it turns out that you have to atone for some of the sins and omissions toward your fellow human beings, like not giving food to someone who is hungry just because they have a cigarette in their hand?

I am not spending my life thinking that I am excused of everything. I know full well that I am not. God will deal with every one of my sins when I get to Heaven. He said so. All (believers and unbelievers) will stand before God and give account for what they have done. Those who didn't trust in Jesus as their Savior will stand before his throne and the books will be opend. They will be judged according to their deeds which are recorded in one of these books. One of the books is called the "book of life". If your name is not found written in the book of life, you are thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelations 20:11-14) Believers are judged for their deeds as well, yet because they have Jesus who already took their punishment for them on the cross, and their names are written in the book of life, they will not be thrown into the lake of fire. They will enter into Heaven, where their deeds will either bring rewards or a loss of them. (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

What if YOU are wrong? Something does happen. What happens is that you think that good deeds are not necessary to get into heaven and that you do not have to account for the sins you've committed throughout your life. What if your life turns out to have been wasted on proclamations of redemption when in fact you have NOT been the best person you can be?

I know that good deeds do not determine our destination,(thankfully) but, for the sake of your scenerio, I will say that if they are required, then I can honestly answer God that I have tried to be the best person that I could be for the majority of my life. I will have to confess to him that I have not been perfect, but that for the most part, I have tried to be. And hope that it was good enough.

Thank God that we don't have to rely on our own good merit to get us into Heaven, huh? Cause no one would make it. If we all truly looked within ourselves we would realize full well that we are lacking.

....................................

[pattygreen 5]

{quote] I’ll give he Moslems some credit on getting out of this dilemma. At least they had the sense to say that the Quran was not written by man, but that the illiterate Prophet Mohamed recited the words told to him by the Archangel Gabriel. Abu Bakr later had scribes transcribe the recitation word for word into the Quran. [end]

Christians do not deny that "man's" hands wrote the bible. God gave these revelations to men who wrote them just as he dictated it to them. Moses wrote some of the Old Testament and Paul and other Apostle's of Christ wrote letters that were compiled for the New Testament. All the bible was written for man through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who is God.

If you will venture out and actually read it, you will find that it is no ordinary book. Even though these books were written at different times and varying circumstances, they harmoniously compliment each other and constitute a whole. It has been aptly remarked that the Hebrew scriptures are the New Testament in prophecy and the New Testament is the Hebrew scriptures in fulfillment (Jere. 31: 31-34, cp. Heb. 8: 7-13). When one considers there were about 40 persons, many of whom from totally different backgrounds, and about 1500 years consumed in the making of the Bible, the Bible truly bespeaks inspiration - a book beyond the scope of mere men.

Edited April 7, 2010 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

There is no doubt that reading, believing and following the Bible has changed many, many lives. Thousands and thousands (how many millions?) of testimonies prove this. The words of the Bible create an impact that can last a lifetime. Biblical principles have the power to change the quality of life beyond cultural norms and expectations. Not making you “wealthy and healthy,” but by giving you contentment and peace unknown elsewhere. In the words of the apostle Paul: “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6-7:).

People get out of debt and shed addictions, marriages are saved and restored, parents become better parents, families grow closer, hate turns to love, forgiveness replaces resentment and genuine joy replaces material happiness. Following the teachings of Scripture lays a solid foundation for a better and happier life. Some are changed overnight, some are transformed over time. Either way, change for the better occurs. God’s Word is the dynamic, transforming power of God. It's not just any book. It's your Creator's book.

[rodriguezequal 3]

It's hard to listen to people talk about "common sense" and truths when they believe in a virgin birth, rising from the dead and people becoming salt. (My sister-in-law wrote that one) lol. Go ahead and quote that scripture that says go ahead and speak for me. Love God. While you're at it look for something that says fertilized eggs have souls...take your time.

[BJean 16]

patty: "All (believers and unbelievers) will stand before God and give account for what they have done. They will be judged according to their deeds which are recorded in one of these books."

Well this part of what you said makes sense to most people. The part where you say that people are going to heaven, no matter what if they just believe, is wishful thinking - for fanatical religious people.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Question...if God is all seeing and all knowing why does he have to keep our sins and deeds in a book? Shouldn't he have that crap memorized?

[BJean 16]

yes, he knows all, sees all, knows every hair on your head, knows what you're thinking, when you've sinned, when you've even thought about sinning... so you better not pout, you better not cry, you better not cry 'cause I'm telling you why... Santa Claus... oops, I mean God, is watching you tonight! Sung to the tune of Santa Claus is Coming to Town.

[pattygreen 5]

It's hard to listen to people talk about "common sense" and truths when they believe in a virgin birth, rising from the dead and people becoming salt. (My sister-in-law wrote that one) lol. Go ahead and quote that scripture that says go ahead and speak for me. Love God. While you're at it look for something that says fertilized eggs have souls...take your time.

In Psalm 139, David described God’s care of him even at the earliest stages of his development. He said that Jehovah saw “my unformed substance” (v. 16). The Hebrew expression appears to denote the “undeveloped embryo” (Kirkpatrick, 789; cf. Kidner, 466; emp WJ). The “embryo” exists before implantation.

In Psalm 22:10 David states "from my mother's womb you have been my God."

This text indicates that David considered himself a person from the moment of his conception.

A Greek word corresponding to the Old Testament zera' is sperma (seed). It is found 217 times in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint; LXX), and 44 times in the Greek New Testament. Likewise, it is employed metaphorically for a person; and this “seed” (person) commences at “conception” (see Hebrews 11:11).

Both Elizabeth and Mary are said to have “conceived” a “son” — not mere tissue (Luke 1:36). It will scarcely be denied that “son” in this context indicates a person.

James wrote: “The body apart from the spirit is dead” (2:26). The text suggests (by implication) that the spirit is present as soon as there is a living body. That tiny “body” commences at conception.

The divine equation is this: body – spirit = corpse; body + spirit = living person.

[pattygreen 5]

patty: "All (believers and unbelievers) will stand before God and give account for what they have done. They will be judged according to their deeds which are recorded in one of these books."

Well this part of what you said makes sense to most people. The part where you say that people are going to heaven, no matter what if they just believe, is wishful thinking - for fanatical religious people.

I see it this way: You either believe all he says or none of it, but you can't believe only the part that you think makes sense to you and discard what you feel doesn't make sense.

All God says is true.

BTW, why do you find it so hard to believe that God will not condemn his own children who have not lived good lives, or who sinnned? If your own son or daughter were not living as you felt they should, would you disinherit them? Would they cease to be your children? I should think not. Neither will God. We might discipline our kids, or withhold our blessings from them, but disown them and send them away from us? never.

Also, you said here:

The part where you say that people are going to heaven, no matter what if they just believe, is wishful thinking.[end] Well, it's not just that they believe, (for even Satan "believes" in God, and we know he's not going to Heaven) It's that they must ask God to save them and have faith in what he says he will do.

God does not want to force anyone to love him. He desires that everyone will ask to be a part of his family. He wants everyone to be his children. He will deny noone that request.

[BJean 16]

So there are millions and millions of lifeless embryos having been created but for some reason, perhaps due to a misshapen sperm or malformed egg for instance, and the embryo miscarries instead of develops, but nevertheless has a soul like a fully developed human being has a soul?

Pity all those blobs of tissue created from misshapen sperm or deformed eggs that have no chance of actually becoming a baby, but have souls because the Bible tells us that sperma is seed and it is employed metaphorically for a person; and this “seed” (person) commences at “conception."

Your logic is flawed. You're saying sperma is seed. But then you must take a leap to suggest that a seed is a person. Because to justify your position that a sperma is a person, you say that in the Bible "seed" (or sperma) is employed metaphorically for a person.

Great powers of reasoning and deduction. But I'm glad to know that you and yours haven't "interpreted" the Bible. It's all there for all of us to know. Geez, woman get a grip.

[pattygreen 5]

Question...if God is all seeing and all knowing why does he have to keep our sins and deeds in a book? Shouldn't he have that crap memorized?

That is for our benefit. Mankind has a hard time understanding spiritual things. So, to say that our deeds are recorded in a book makes sense. It helps mankind to understand that God knows all that we've done throughout our lives. He is keeping track of it.

[LeighaMason 19]

In Psalm 139, David described God’s care of him even at the earliest stages of his development. He said that Jehovah saw “my unformed substance” (v. 16).

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.

All the days ordained for me

were written in your book

before one of them came to be.

The Hebrew expression appears to denote the “undeveloped embryo” (Kirkpatrick, 789; cf. Kidner, 466; emp WJ). The “embryo” exists before implantation.

In Psalm 22:10 David states "from my mother's womb you have been my God."

10 From birth I was cast upon you;

from my mother's womb you have been my God.

This text indicates that David considered himself a person from the moment of his conception.

A Greek word corresponding to the Old Testament zera' is sperma (seed). It is found 217 times in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint; LXX), and 44 times in the Greek New Testament. Likewise, it is employed metaphorically for a person; and this “seed” (person) commences at “conception” (see Hebrews 11:11).

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise.

Both Elizabeth and Mary are said to have “conceived” a “son” — not mere tissue (Luke 1:36).

36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month.

It will scarcely be denied that “son” in this context indicates a person.

James wrote: “The body apart from the spirit is dead” (2:26).

26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

The text suggests (by implication) that the spirit is present as soon as there is a living body. That tiny “body” commences at conception.

The divine equation is this: body – spirit = corpse; body + spirit = living person.

Thanks so much for the James 2:26 quote I have looking for that!

[pattygreen 5]

So there are millions and millions of lifeless embryos having been created but for some reason, perhaps due to a misshapen sperm or malformed egg for instance, and the embryo miscarries instead of develops, but nevertheless has a soul like a fully developed human being has a soul?

Pity all those blobs of tissue created from misshapen sperm or deformed eggs that have no chance of actually becoming a baby, but have souls because the Bible tells us that sperma is seed and it is employed metaphorically for a person; and this “seed” (person) commences at “conception."

Your logic is flawed. You're saying sperma is seed. But then you must take a leap to suggest that a seed is a person. Because to justify your position that a sperma is a person, you say that in the Bible "seed" (or sperma) is employed metaphorically for a person.

Great powers of reasoning and deduction. But I'm glad to know that you and yours haven't "interpreted" the Bible. It's all there for all of us to know. Geez, woman get a grip.

The seed does not have a soul until it meets the egg. Then it is a soul, a living being.

[BJean 16]

My point is that all these spontaneous miscarriages, those blobs of tissue - united sperms and eggs in whatever condition - have souls according to you.

[BJean 16]

P.S. you said a seed is a person.