who supports right to choose

[Corliss 0]

To those who say we don't live in a secular society/government:

Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular

by Jim Walker

A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T. Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less-- of Americans in 1800 were members of congregations."

The Founding Fathers, also, rarely practiced Christian orthodoxy. Although they supported the free exercise of any religion, they understood the dangers of religion. Most of them believed in deism and attended Freemasonry lodges. According to John J. Robinson, "Freemasonry had been a powerful force for religious freedom." Freemasons took seriously the principle that men should worship according to their own conscience. Masonry welcomed anyone from any religion or non-religion, as long as they believed in a Supreme Being. Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Hamilton, Lafayette, and many others accepted Freemasonry.

The Constitution reflects our founders views of a secular government, protecting the freedom of any belief or unbelief. The historian, Robert Middlekauff, observed, "the idea that the Constitution expressed a moral view seems absurd. There were no genuine evangelicals in the Convention, and there were no heated declarations of Christian piety."

Treaty of Tripoli

Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:

Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul General of Algiers

Copyright National Portait Gallery Smithsonian Institution/Art Resource NY

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).

Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli only lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the U.S. government.

Thank you so much!

Corliss:thumbup:

[Corliss 0]

It is interesting to note that those who advocate abortion almost always are against the death penalty because it is 'cruel' and 'unreasonable'. Let's see if I understand that. They don't want a convicted killer executed, but they do want innocent babies killed if they may become an inconvenience to the living. I believe such non-thinking proves that reading the New York Times and the Washington Post has a tendency to rot the brain of liberals.

Nope, no babies should be killed or starved to death. Embryos are not babies, I am not sure at what point a fetus becomes a baby, I think around 5 months. An embryo does not have the development neccesary to scream or be aware of pain. In theory I don't believe that capital punishment is right, however there are some situations that I have a hard time disapproving.

Your statements are so blind. If you were to even say "some liberals" they would be a lot closer to truth, but basically they are just very presumptive and sound ignorant. If that is thinking, PLEASE, just let my brain rot.

Corliss

[BJean 16]

Yay Corliss!

I forgot to mention you and Cleo'sMom when I bragged on people's posts. You both sound like very bright and aware women. You bring so much to the table. I love your posts!!!

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Yay Corliss!

I forgot to mention you and Cleo'sMom when I bragged on people's posts. You both sound like very bright and aware women. You bring so much to the table. I love your posts!!!

Thank you. You do too. Your posts are well thought out and intellegently written. Those who don't have that ability (or the facts on their side) have to resort to broad generalizations, emotional buzzwords, being judgemental and lies.

[BJean 16]

I think I bring emotion to the table. You are great at posting facts. And it is very impressive.

[pattygreen 5]

So right! It amazes me that people can be so self rightous. Those who take the bible so literally conveniently leave out the parts that hold themselves accountable for their failures or reproach them for their acts especially of condemantion. If they want to Celebrate their psuedo-piety, if they want to have their lives ruled by fear, that is okay for them, but I don't need it and don't try to force it on me or my kids or grandkids.

Corliss

what are you talking about? Are you saying that I don't hold myself accountable for my failures?

What fear rules my life?

[TN_girl21 1]

A person nor government can tell a woman what to do to her own body. Now...abortion should NOT be a birth control. Just because a girl gets pregnant, and doesn't want the child for no reason, she shouldn't just get an abortion. But on the other hand, if I was a victim of rape or incest, and I cannot say that I wouldn't think twice about an abortion. I couldn't live with myself knowing I had a child growing inside of me that was forced (rape) on me.

And yes, I am against the death penalty because Jesus said that He will condemn those who did not take care of the hungered, naked, thirsty, sick and in prison. (Matthew 25:35-46) "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me.' Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Now..I know everyone can interpret that different, but that's just my view. Nor am I trying to persuade anyone to agree with me. Just my 2 cents...

[pattygreen 5]

How does that verse suggest that the death penalty is wrong? Just because people are in prison who need us to care for them? We certainly aren't going to put 'every' prisoner to death. Just those who murder.

[BJean 16]

TN_Girl, I get it and I agree wholeheartedly.

[TN_girl21 1]

PG...The reason I interpret it like that is because the death penalty is not taking care of a prisoner.

Thank you, BJean! This is totally off topic, but I love your name. Only because I show American Saddlebred show horses and Road Ponies, and my favorite Road Pony is named Beaulah Jean (who is the current and 2 time World Grand Champion, the highest title you can get). Random..I know lol

Edited January 16, 2010 by TN_girl21

[Corliss 0]

what are you talking about? Are you saying that I don't hold myself accountable for my failures?

What fear rules my life?

Yes, as in telling the truth. Specifically, "thou shalt not bear false witness." The blanket statements you make about liberals are false witness. You are not the only one, there are loads of folks who go about ranting this drivel. As far as fear goes, you are obviously afraid to examine evidence which is contrary to your precious belief system. You don't have to make choices you can just go right along and do as you are taught. You don't have to test your faith, because you never seriously consider any alternatives. There is lots of security there.

What about feeding the hungry and comforting the sick? Visiting the prisoner? Clothing the poor? How high on your list of priorities are those things. Many religious conservatives feel that these very actions are sinful and result in "taking care of those who won't take care of themselves."

I said earlier I don't generally bother to discuss this with people who claim Biblical authority, and I probably should not go any further here.

[Corliss 0]

Yay Corliss!

I forgot to mention you and Cleo'sMom when I bragged on people's posts. You both sound like very bright and aware women. You bring so much to the table. I love your posts!!!

TY BJ. I am so glad to read so many thinking peoples statements on these issues. I just get so tired of man's inhumanity to man, judgementalism and condemnation of one another all in the name of Christ. That is not the Christ whose life I attempt to learn from at least on my better days.

Corliss

[Cleo's Mom 257]

If any of you saw Michael Moore's "Capitalism: A Love Story" there is a part in which Jesus is portrayed and he comes across a leper on a stretcher. He tells him he cannot cure him because he has a pre-existing condition.

Just as conservatives are trying to rewrite history (particularly the bush era) they are trying to re-write the bible to make Jesus this hard hearted conservative, when in fact he didn't travel with the rich, the powerful, the well-connected, but rather was among the poor, the sick, the desperate, the sinners.

[Corliss 0]

If any of you saw Michael Moore's "Capitalism: A Love Story" there is a part in which Jesus is portrayed and he comes across a leper on a stretcher. He tells him he cannot cure him because he has a pre-existing condition.

Just as conservatives are trying to rewrite history (particularly the bush era) they are trying to re-write the bible to make Jesus this hard hearted conservative, when in fact he didn't travel with the rich, the powerful, the well-connected, but rather was among the poor, the sick, the desperate, the sinners.

Thank you so much for those statements. They are so true and are a concise explanation of is wrong with America today! Christ ministered outside the gates. He acted up and was crucified due to his revolutionary teachings and behaviors. Conservative Christians just don't get it.

Corliss

[BJean 16]

Corliss: "Thank you so much for those statements. They are so true and are a concise explanation of is wrong with America today! Christ ministered outside the gates. He acted up and was crucified due to his revolutionary teachings and behaviors. Conservative Christians just don't get it."

Ironic that I was off posting on another thread on the same topic. I'm not even sure which thread it was since several of them have turned into religious rants.