who supports right to choose

[pattygreen 5]

I know many horror stories about adoptions. I won't enumerate them or discuss the specifics here. But I know that a lot of people regret having babies and giving them up for adoption.

I haven't spoken with any woman who has admitted that she had an abortion who would like to turn back time and do it differently. They all know that the decision to abort was the best decision they could make.[END]

That's because after the deed is done, it's done. You can't make a dead baby come back to life. No sense even thinking about it again. There are many who do, though. They regret their choice to have an abortion. Like my sister in law who had 3, and then when she wanted one, she could no longer have any. As you get older, your ideas and thoughts about issues can change, and when they do, you may regret some of your past 'choices.' But in an adoption, you know you have a 'live' child out there that you have given up and your curiosity to know of it may be strong. Still it is better than murdering it.

Edited January 14, 2010 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

Except when we get it totally wrong, which have done far too many times.

The death penalty is absurd and so is trying to legislate a woman’s right to chose on purely religious grounds. Give me a non religious argument against abortion (or gay marriage for that matter) and I’ll debate it, otherwise you have no grounds to discuss the issue in a secular democracy.

This is not a secular democracy. 85% of all the people who live in the country you live in form their opinions on issues based on their faith. The Christian faith. They believe in a God and therefore the words that he has given us. You, OTOH, should discuss the issue according to the majority. My debates on controversial issues will always be in light of what God has said on the subjscts because that is where I get my knowledge of what is 'right' and 'wrong'. I can not be swayed. I have a foundation and a basis for the way I think on issues, you do not. You come up with your own theory of what you 'feel' is right or wrong. You are your own God.

[BJean 16]

Now THAT by jove, is rude.

I'll leave it to kartman to straighten you out on this issue. Not that you will listen to reasonable people...

[Cleo's Mom 257]

This is not a secular democracy. 85% of all the people who live in the country you live in form their opinions on issues based on their faith. The Christian faith. They believe in a God and therefore the words that he has given us. You, OTOH, should discuss the issue according to the majority. My debates on controversial issues will always be in light of what God has said on the subjscts because that is where I get my knowledge of what is 'right' and 'wrong'. I can not be swayed. I have a foundation and a basis for the way I think on issues, you do not. You come up with your own theory of what you 'feel' is right or wrong. You are your own God.

I wonder if those 85% that you so generously quote would agree with one of their fellow conservatives who sure speaks for many of them:

WASHINGTON — The White House is firing back at Rush Limbaugh after the conservative talk radio host urged people not to donate to relief efforts in Haiti.

Spokesman Robert Gibbs says there are always people who say "really stupid things" during a crisis. He says it's sad that Limbaugh would use the power of his pulpit to convince people not to assist those in need.

Limbaugh said on his radio show Wednesday that he wouldn't trust that money donated to Haiti through the White House Web site would actually go to the relief efforts. He said Americans don't need to contribute to earthquake relief because they already donate to Haiti through their income taxes.

If 85% of those who live in this country get their political views from their religious views (as you claim) and if limbaugh has 20 million listeners and they aren't liberals, then it stand to reason that they are these conservative christians. If he is their spokesperson (what else can he be called?) then it speaks volumes for the real moral compass of that religion.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[KartMan 58]

What are you smoking Patty? The U.S. absolutely IS a secular Democracy. You don’t seem to understand what the term means, even though I have described it to you and pointed out references to you on numerous occasions. I have no problem with people in office having a belief in God or following a particular religious view. I also don’t have a problem with the electorate voting certain ways based on their faith (or lack thereof as the case may be). The problem is when someone such as yourself tries to say we should make laws specifically because of a particular religious tenant, it just doesn’t work and is unconstitutional.

Abortion is a great example for this. I have asked you several times to give me a non-religious reason to ban abortion, you can’t because there really is no non-religious reason. Now I would agree that reasonable people can have differences of opinion on when and where an abortion is appropriate, but an outright ban – that’s silly and based solely on religious dogma.

I think you owe me an apology on the line “I think on issues, you do not “. How is it that a person (myself) that considers a variety of sources, well traveled, is very well read, and is open minded on many issues can be accused of not thinking while another person (you) who basis all of their opinions on arcane writings from a single source is a thinker? I don’t get that one.

I never claimed to be a God. I am the same thing Jesus was, just a man –nothing more, nothing less.

[KartMan 58]

I wonder is those 85% that you so generously quote would agree with one of their fellow conservatives who sure speaks for many of them:

WASHINGTON — The White House is firing back at Rush Limbaugh after the conservative talk radio host urged people not to donate to relief efforts in Haiti.

Spokesman Robert Gibbs says there are always people who say "really stupid things" during a crisis. He says it's sad that Limbaugh would use the power of his pulpit to convince people not to assist those in need.

Limbaugh said on his radio show Wednesday that he wouldn't trust that money donated to Haiti through the White House Web site would actually go to the relief efforts. He said Americans don't need to contribute to earthquake relief because they already donate to Haiti through their income taxes.

If 85% of those who live in this country get their political views from their religious views (as you claim) and if limbaugh has 20 million listeners and they aren't liberals, then it stand to reason that they are these conservative christians. If he is their spokesperson (what else can he be called?) then it speaks volumes for the real moral compass of that religion.

What Patty fails to realize is that even if that 85% statistic is right (which I really doubt), they are not monolithic. They certainly don’t have the same narrow minded view of politics and religion that she does. I know several Christians that support Gay Marriage and several that believe in a woman’s right to choose. The point is, Patty can’t “claim” that 85% because it really doesn’t mean anything.

[btrieger 21]

I never claimed to be a God. I am the same thing Jesus was, just a man –nothing more, nothing less.

Bull!!!

You actually exist and nobody is claiming that your mother was a virgin when she gave birth to you. :thumbup:

[pattygreen 5]

I think you owe me an apology on the line “I think on issues, you do not “.

I did not say that you don't think. Read it again. I said that "I have a foundation and a basis for the way I think on issues, you do not."

This means that I don't use my own judgement to come up with my sense of what's right and wrong. I have a 'foundation' and a 'basis' for my views, and it is Jesus and what he says about the issues. You do not have a basis for what is right and wrong. It is only what you deem so. This is my reasoning for saying that you are your own God.

[KartMan 58]

I think you owe me an apology on the line “

I think on issues, you do not “.

I did not say that you don't think. Read it again. I said that "I have a foundation and a basis for the way I think on issues, you do not."

This means that I don't use my own judgement to come up with my sense of what's right and wrong. I have a 'foundation' and a 'basis' for my views, and it is Jesus and what he says about the issues. You do not have a basis for what is right and wrong. It is only what you deem so. This is my reasoning for saying that you are your own God.

IMHO, you do not have a foundation at all. Your beliefs are based on mythology, mysticism and faith. None of which are foundational at all. A foundation (again, this is my opinion) would be one that is based on observed facts, evidence, proven hypothesis, etc. It’s called the scientific method, you should Google it sometime.

[KartMan 58]

Bull!!!

You actually exist and nobody is claiming that your mother was a virgin when she gave birth to you. :thumbup:

I’m happy to concede that Jesus existed, I never argue that point. I don’t think there is enough evidence to prove he didn’t exist. I think he was simply a prophet though. I do believe he was deeply religious. Even if half the things attributed to him are true – it seems as if he was genuinely a good man. I also think if he were alive today, he would be saddened by what people say and do in his name. I certainly do not believe though that he is the Son of God (or that “God” exists for that matter) or that he was conceived from a virgin birth.

[pattygreen 5]

IMHO, you do not have a foundation at all. Your beliefs are based on mythology, mysticism and faith. None of which are foundational at all. A foundation (again, this is my opinion) would be one that is based on observed facts, evidence, proven hypothesis, etc. It’s called the scientific method, you should Google it sometime.

I 'know' what the scientific method is. You think I don't have a foundation but I know I do. And that's what matters.

A foundation is the basis on which something is grounded. My thinking is grounded in biblical understanding. And yours? I believe, are your own life's experiences and thoughts.

Whether they are 'scientifically' proven to be true or not is irrelevent. I don't need science to authenticate what I believe. I have the bible. And in it, my God tells me that he laughs at the so called 'wisdom' of man.

[BJean 16]

God laughs at the wisdom of man? I'm sure you're not quoting the Bible here. Of course if you were, you'd put the sentence in quotes and cite your source. So where in the Bible does it say that God laughs at the wisdom of man? Because I'm pretty sure you've been interpreting again... oh ye of blind faith.

[pattygreen 5]

God laughs at the wisdom of man? I'm sure you're not quoting the Bible here. Of course if you were, you'd put the sentence in quotes and cite your source. So where in the Bible does it say that God laughs at the wisdom of man? Because I'm pretty sure you've been interpreting again... oh ye of blind faith.

Do you laugh at fools? I do.

1 Corinthians 3:18-21

18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"[a]; 20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."[b] 21So then, no more boasting about men!

Scientists may say or feel that they have all the answers, but only God has all the answers.

[BJean 16]

Well my interpretation of "foolishness" obviously does not match with yours. Foolishness means: despicable, ridiculous, absurd, unwise, shallow, brainless, incautious and weak-minded. I honestly do not believe that God laughs at people who are those things. He also tell us that we shouldn't call people fools because it is the worst insult. I don't think he meant that in a funny way.

[KartMan 58]

Whether they are 'scientifically' proven to be true or not is irrelevent. I don't need science to authenticate what I believe. I have the bible.

Wow… How can I argue with that? Why even try?

Seems to me that Blind Faith leads to perilous consequences, but that is just my opinion. I choose to base my knowledge on demonstrative facts that can be replicated, vetted, and cross checked. In fact, I look forward to the times when science and conventional wisdom are proved wrong, it further validates the process. How often does religion admit that it is wrong? Or God forbid (pun intended), admit that the Bible is wrong?

Edited January 15, 2010 by KartMan