who supports right to choose

[BJean 16]

Well there are stories in the Bible of the sacrifice of animals.

And there are stories of all creatures being made by God.

There are stories of war being acceptable and then we had Hitler, who was supposedly a Christian. If you had been a German living under his dictatorship at that time, perhaps you would have believed that Hitler was being guided by God when he tried to exterminate Jews.

Some Muslims believe that we Americans are infidels who should be destroyed. They're guided, they believe, by Allah, to do all they can to get rid of us.

These are the reasons I am so against wars. I don't believe we should be killing each other. I believe that we should be able to live and let live. We need to learn how to live together in one global "villiage". But as long as there are people who can justify war and killing in the name of their God, how can we negotiate peace?

I believe our President understands this and that is why he works for diplomatic resolutions and why he is tolerant of other world leaders even when he does not agree with their politics. Many of us who are older went through a time in politics when that was an accepted and desired goal for any president.

Many of us are puzzled about the aggressive and warlike posture that many Americans take. Dick Cheney and others have made people think that war and domination is a good thing. It is not a good thing.

[pattygreen 5]

There are stories of war being acceptable and then we had Hitler, who was supposedly a Christian. If you had been a German living under his dictatorship at that time, perhaps you would have believed that Hitler was being guided by God when he tried to exterminate Jews.

.................................................................................

All one has to do is take a look at Hitler's 'fruits' to see that he was in no way a Christian. many people 'say' that they are Christian, yet live as unbelievers do, without any reguard for God's laws.

Take a look at the muslim Americans who stood up and denounced the terrorists who kill in the name of Allah. They are against what they do in their God's name and rightly so.

No one likes war. It would be great if everyone would just get along. But there will always be those who want to be on top. There will always be countries that want to invade other countries. There will always be those who want to kill others, so it's kill or be killed. It's called defense, and we need it.

[jessress87 0]

Patty:

Originally Posted by jessress87

Well, I must say this thread has got me thinking...

and thinking...

and thinking.......

I'm also very frustrated that after all this thinking I can't come to a firm conclusion. When asked if I am pro-life or pro-choice my knee-jerk reaction is to say pro-life. I would answer pro-life because I personally would not have an abortion (unless my life is being threatened by the early pregnancy). I will tell you right now that my answer on the poll was that I am pro-life except in cases where the life of the mother is threatened.

But I read and read and read some more and have to admit that I swayed a little bit when I considered that I too do not want the government to take over my choices. What might they do next? Do I believe that abortion is morally wrong? In most cases yes- but who am I to judge? For someone who doesn't believe that a life is being taken it would not be morally wrong- it's all relative. And just because I beleive it's wrong doesn't mean that belief should be forced on EVERYONE.

Why not, Jess? People have many differing beliefs about all the laws we have. Beliefs of all kinds are forced on people everywhere with all our laws. My son feels there is absolutely nothing wrong with smoking pot. He says it's not as bad as alcohol is. Yet, the laws force him to smoke in hiding.

I think that the whole issue is that no one can come to an agreement about whether or not it's murder. If it was black and white, like some might consider smoking pot (I've never smoked pot nor really knew anyone personally so I can't say I know what kind of ill effects it has- but I take its being illegal is due to the facts of it's obvious ((or not so obvious to me,) negative effects). I just don't want it to get to the point where the government starts forcing more and more of their beliefs on me. Armed robbey is wrong, rape is wrong, assault is wrong, therefore no one (that I know of) has any objection to these things being illegl. However, not all people consider abortion to be murder because not all people believe that an 8 wk fetus is a baby. I do, but not everyone else does. So until the scientific community can come up with a determination that this fetus, at this stage is technically a human being, whether or not it's 'murder' will always be a gray area.

I do, however, cringe at the stories of women who have had 4, 5, or 6 abortions- have you ever heard of birth control? I do realize that it isn't always 100% effective but it's definitely more effective than nothing at all!

I think that one of the things that really bothers me about abortions is that I know more than a few women who have suffered miscarriages or who have not been able to have children. I feel like it's so unfair that someone who didn't want it (or for whatever reason chose abortion) would be blessed with such a gift when there are women that want it desperately that haven't been able.

I have another dilemma from the analogy provided earlier about if exterminating the Jewish was legal. (sorry, I know this is inflammatory but I can see its relevance)I knowthis is just hypothetical but in this situation, how could I just say, 'well I'm not going to participate but I'm also not going to do anything about it. I know it's not the same thing, but still. On the other hand, abortion is legal and I'm not going to go around harassing people about their choice.

I'm not going to go to abortion clinics or campaign or anything against it, but when asked how I feel about the legalization of it, I will alwys give my strong response to anyone that I am totally against the killings that this country allows daily.

I can appreciate that. You are most certainly entitled to your opinion, as everyone else is, and you absolutely should feel free to express a strong response against something you disagree with, as long as that strong response isn't throwing pigs blood on young women coming out of an abortion clinic

.

(Totally kidding, btw- you seem like a reasonable lady, I'm sure you wouldn't do that)

I think that in order for something to be called murder there has to be mallicious intent. I don't think that every woman having an abortion is saying 'take that, fetus!'. I'm sure it's a very, very difficult situation for most (except for maybe those who seem to use it as birth control). But I also do believe that some form of life begins at conception.

I do agree that women who have abortions are not thinking that they are murdering anyone. They are focused on their 'problem' and want it to go away. But it is a fact that they are murdering none the less.

It's all relative.

I brought this subject up to my fiancee last night and I must say that I was VERY surprised at his response. I asked him if he thought an abortion would be acceptable under any circumstance. He said no. I said, 'what if the mother's life was in danger,' he said no. If it's God's will for you to die in order for your child to live, it's your time.' This scares me. I have to say that if a doctor was telling me that I AM going to die if I don't have an abortion, I think I would have to. Am I being selfish? I don't want to die. I don't want my baby to die either. I try to think about it this way: my 6 wk old fetus is a tiny, comfy, content life. He doesn't know anything yet. He hasn't seen anything yet. But I have. I've seen corn blowing in a breezy summer night. I've experienced true love. I've made sacrifices. I've made mistakes. I've been disappointed. I've been elated. I would never get to see my mom, my dad, my brothers, grandparents, nieces, nephews again. Which of us would be more valuable to humanity? I can't answer that question- again, maybe I'm just being selfish.

I believe that every person has a right to defend themselves. If she is going to die from carrying and delivering her baby, then, and only then, should she be able to live by aborting her own death sentence. I know that other pro-life people do not agree with this view, but I believe it is the right one.

I agree :frown:

I do consider myself a non-religious Christian, which in itself is something I'm sure some people would have a problem with.

Definitely not me. I do not like 'religion'. I prefer people to have a personal relationship with God, one on one, without the interference of organizations and their made up rules and ideas.

That is refreshing to see. I feel a lot of judgment sometimes for feeling that way.

I am of the belief that Jesus died for my sins. I think that says it all right there. We are all sinners- that's why Jesus died for us. I believe that you should try to be kind to others, I believe that you should help somebody if you can, I believe that you should try to be tolerant when dealing with someone who has different beliefs than yourself.

When I get ticked off at a bad driver, or a cranky cashier just as I reach the point of irritation I try to remind myself that I don't know what happened to that person today. They're grandpa may have just died. They could be going through a rough divorce. I know that the day I found out my Dad was diagnosed with prostate cancer I was out of sorts, I hope no one would hold that against me. (They caught it early, he did some extensive radiation and is now doing great (knock on wood! Thank you Lord!))

I believe that Jesus loves us all, despite our sins. I don't believe that in order to have a relationship with God you have to attend Church every Sunday and Wednesday and doing so doesn't automatically make you a 'good person' it doesn't make you a bad person either. Just like I would never peg someone with different beliefs as me as a 'bad person,' it's not my place to judge. I feel like we should always try to be understanding and treat others with respect. I'm not saying I've been perfect with this, but who is?

I agree.

[rodriguezequal 3]

I want to make sure that you all understand my position on that . I do not feel that God would ask us to give up our lives for the sake of someone elses life.(the mothers) I believe that every woman has the right to defend herself from death.

I believe that every person should be allowed to defend themselves from death without repercussion. But according to our laws, the unborn baby is not given that right. He can not defend himself from an abortion.

If a woman finds herself in the position while pregnant that her life is at stake, then, and only then, should an abortion be performed.

There is never a guarantee that labor will not kill the mother...we cannot see into the future so we cannot always say that giving birth wont kill the mother. I almost died giving birth to my son and no one knew that was going to happen!

[jessress87 0]

And jessress, I will share a gut wrenching decision that my former brother-in-law had to make when he was newly married and in his mid-twenties.

He was a minister and evangalist and actively involved in the Southern Baptist convention. He and his stunningly beautiful wife had graduated top of their class in college. He went to seminary she sang like an angel. Their life together had the promise of much love, beauty and service to the church.

She became pregnant with twins. They were estatic. Their extended family of the large congregation where they worshipped, was thrilled for them.

Then she very quickly became sick with a mysterious illness that was confounding to her ob/gyn. He hospitalized her. Specialists were called in on the case and the doctors quickly concluded that the only way to save her was to take the babies, because it was the pregnancy that was threatening her life.

She was so sick she was in alternate states of unconscious and delerium. They asked her dear sweet husband to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy to save his wife. Or alternatively, they said, they could induce a coma, put her on life support and try to just keep her alive long enough to allow the twins to become viable. What a horrendous decision he was faced with.

He decided that they should do all they could to save the babies. So she was quickly intubated, put on life support and the team of medical staff gave up trying to save her life, only the babies. Within a week, they were all three dead. Gone was the beautiful young wife. Gone was the promise of 2 children. Gone were his dreams of a life with his lover and friend because death parted them.

Did it have to happen that way? No. He could have chosen to save his wife and try again for babies (which is what the doctors recommended). But he felt that it was God's will that the babies be saved. He thought that God was telling him to save the babies no matter what.

For her parents though, it was the worst decision he could have made. They begged him to allow the doctors to try to save her. They didn't have the opportunity for more children. Their daughter was their only child and the light of their life. Even many of the church members felt that he had made the wrong decision. But of course there was support for him from other members of the congregation and the minister himself completely supported him and comforted him.

The memories and pain were difficult for him and so he chose to move to another state to get away from the constant reminders in our close-knit town. Within a couple of years, he was remarried, appointed as an assistant pastor of a church and continued his work as a summertime traveling evangelist. He and his new wife eventually had 3 children. His life was good.

Personally I don't know how he lives with himself. Oh yes I do... he convinced himself it was God's plan for his first wife to fall ill and die with her unborn fetuses. It was God's plan and he was merely doing what God told him to do when he chose to put her in a coma and on life support to try to save the babies.

It was a nightmare 30 years ago and continues to be a nightmare for those of us who loved that beautiful, dark-haired, fabulously talented young woman.

BJean, thank you for sharing this story- I know it must not have been easy for you. I think that is something valuable to consider for anyone who believes that a mother should sacrifice their life for the chance that their baby might live.

Even worse, what if eventually the government decided to take over that decision too...

[rodriguezequal 3]

I didn't say that animals were not an important part of God's creation. I just said that they are here today and gone tomorrow. They are not like people who have eternal souls. Jesus did not die for the souls of animals, but for the souls of mankind. They are more important to him than the animals. Otherwise you might be hearing the stories of how he died for them instead of mankind.

BTW, how is my stating that animals don't have souls uncompassionate and unloving? Did I create them that way? no. I didn't have a say in whether they would live eternally or not. So how does that make me uncompassionate? wow!

Wow...I'm pretty sure I didn't say specifically that in the instance of the animals was the only time I felt you weren't compassionate...

[pattygreen 5]

Can you see the baby?

[BJean 16]

Nope because I'd probably have to click on the box and I don't trust any anti-choice person to post something that won't be grim and bloody. And I don't need a lesson in human anatomy and physiology or reproduction.

All this argument over when a fertilized egg becomes a viable human being is totally beside the point. The government really should never be in control of women and their reproductive organs. That's what I believe because I know it is right. I have no doubt that women will make whatever decision they must make.

They make the decision because it is their body and they have physical control over it. They and they alone know what the repercussions will be if they allow a fertilized egg to grow in their womb. The government and you and I have no way of knowing. We cannot know each and every complication that a woman may have to deal with. We have no way of knowing the mental health of a woman who has been raped or whose birth control has failed. So how can the government or we make such an all-important decision for every woman?

Bringing babies into the world is far too important for the government to set itself up as the arbiter of every case of pregnancy. And it is just as wrong for you or I to do it. Besides, it is virtually impossible and arguing for it is like blowing in the wind.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Very intelligent post and well said, BJean. The other side's arguments is pure emotion. Pictures of aborted fetuses, screaming fetuses, name calling (murderer), etc..

As I have said before, if you believe abortion is murder then don't have an abortion and don't let your daughter have one and let the rest of us to make our own decision.

[BJean 16]

Thanks, C'sM. If the anti-choice people would spend as much energy and time on saving the world's children, we wouldn't have to worry about them at all. Wouldn't that be something?

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Thanks, C'sM. If the anti-choice people would spend as much energy and time on saving the world's children, we wouldn't have to worry about them at all. Wouldn't that be something?

Amen to that!

[pattygreen 5]

Nope because I'd probably have to click on the box and I don't trust any anti-choice person to post something that won't be grim and bloody. And I don't need a lesson in human anatomy and physiology or reproduction

If you look at the picture, you can see a baby in the womb. It's a trick on the eye. nothing more. I thought it was cute. Boy, are you paranoid.

[rodriguezequal 3]

It's not being paranoid when you've already posted disgusting footage before...I didn't want to click on it either

[pattygreen 5]

The video I posted was by a doctor who wants to bring the reality of what abortion actually really does to a baby in the womb. If you felt it was disgusting I need to ask why? If it's just a blob in there, then what's so disgusting about yanking on it with forceps or clamping down on the brain and pulling it out? See, when you just 'talk' about the baby as if it's not really a baby, you don't really get that it is. But get down and real and actually be present in the doctors place and see for yourself what the process entails and it's another story. If it's just a blob of tissue, and not a living human baby, then what's so disguting about watching the abortion? And, it wasn't even a real baby in the video, it was a plastic replica that they used to show what happens in an abortion. Imagine if it was the real thing?

[rodriguezequal 3]

I didn't watch it because I assumed it was something that I would rather not watch. Just because I support a women's right to have an abortion doesn't mean I want to watch one take place