who supports right to choose

[rodriguezequal 3]

Lol...Love it!

[jalomum 1]

God tells us to choose His ways, instead of our own ways; shameful acts done secretly do not please Him.

Proverbs 1

29 Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD,

30 since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke,

31 they will eat the fruit of their ways

Ephesians 5

10 and find out what pleases the Lord.

11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.

God tells us to CHOOSE to fear the Lord. He tells us to find out what pleases Him. Is God pleased when we end a life that He was in the middle of creating? We should exert a lot of energy and prayer, and Bible study into finding out what pleases the Lord. Often times what pleases Him is not what we would normally do.

Have you ever noticed the secrecy behind abortions? Women can go secretly to have them done. Even underage girls don't have to tell their parents! when doctors get together, they often talk about their work and what they do. I have NEVER heard of an abortion provider openly talking about his/hers abortions that were performed that day. There is a mild to moderate amount of secrecy and even shame that surrounds abortion. Most women feel shameful even to mention what they did. It is rare indeed for a woman to talk as openly about her abortion as she would a hysterectomy, tubal ligation, or other gynecological procedures. Likewise, it is as rare for a doctor to talk as openly about his abortion practice as he would other parts of his practice. This is truly a shameful, secretive practice.

Find out what pleases the Lord!!! ___________________________________________________________________________

I have followed this debate and it is truly a very emotional subject.

I would just like to ask Patty if she follows the teachings of the bible in all things? and if so, has that always been the case all her life. Also do you apply these values to all lives that are in the process of being created or just human ones.

And on the subject of the holocaust analogy which I understand to have been an atrocity commited by someone who believed he was following the teachings of God as he interpreted it...

According Steigmann-Gall this speech took place in the Bürgerbräukeller in Munich in April 1922: Wikipaedia:Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.

I really wish Adolf Hitlers mum had elected to have an abortion.

[BJean 16]

jessress: I loved your posts. Thank you so much for bringing another set of beliefs, life experiences and viewpoint to these discussions!!

You are, I think, a very typical young woman who has to dig very deep to fully understand and come to grips with the reality of whether or not a woman has the right to choose or if the government should choose for her.

Your husband, on the other hand, did not have the benefit of all the discussion here or the chance to do the soul searching that you did before answering the question. If he did, his answer might be different - MIGHT be. If he were a woman his answer MIGHT be different too. But whether or not he may ever change his mind on the subject (as in the extreme circumstance where he had to choose between you and a baby), his viewpoint and beliefs are his and he has every right to believe whatever he believes.

But thank goodness he is not in the position to make that decision for each and every woman who is faced with the horrible delimma. What a horrendous responsibility that would be, right?

Well if the government were making the decision for women, it wouldn't be one person, who had to face the consequences of his decision as in the case of your husband. It would be a relatively anonymous, faceless entity doing it with no remorse or compassion or regret if the decision turned out to be a seriously bad one.

Btw, I know what you're saying about generalizations regarding what kind of individuals make up both political parties. I definitely am guilty of cheering when someone says good things about the people of my party and cheering when they say bad things about the opposition party.

But you are so right. There are good people and bad people in both parties. To say that one party is more Christian or of higher moral standards is not 100% true and it undoubtedly serves little purpose for someone to state that it is true. By the same token, not every Democrat has the best interests of America at heart.

Generalizations always get us into trouble. In both discussions about women's right to choose as well as putting labels individuals in political parties.

I loved your posts. Thank you very much.

[pattygreen 5]

I would just like to ask Patty if she follows the teachings of the bible in all things? and if so, has that always been the case all her life. Also do you apply these values to all lives that are in the process of being created or just human ones.

Yes, I try to follow the teachings of the bible in all things. I sometimes fail, though, as I am only human. But I do try.

I apply these values to humans only. God gave us the animals to be a blessing to us. He gave them to us for food to eat and for our comfort. Animals do not have souls, and therefore, have only this life to live with no concern for all eternity as humans do.

[Carrie_C 9]

There is no proof that animals don't have souls. There is no where in the Bible that says that animals won't be in heaven.

[BJean 16]

And jessress, I will share a gut wrenching decision that my former brother-in-law had to make when he was newly married and in his mid-twenties.

He was a minister and evangalist and actively involved in the Southern Baptist convention. He and his stunningly beautiful wife had graduated top of their class in college. He went to seminary she sang like an angel. Their life together had the promise of much love, beauty and service to the church.

She became pregnant with twins. They were estatic. Their extended family of the large congregation where they worshipped, was thrilled for them.

Then she very quickly became sick with a mysterious illness that was confounding to her ob/gyn. He hospitalized her. Specialists were called in on the case and the doctors quickly concluded that the only way to save her was to take the babies, because it was the pregnancy that was threatening her life.

She was so sick she was in alternate states of unconscious and delerium. They asked her dear sweet husband to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy to save his wife. Or alternatively, they said, they could induce a coma, put her on life support and try to just keep her alive long enough to allow the twins to become viable. What a horrendous decision he was faced with.

He decided that they should do all they could to save the babies. So she was quickly intubated, put on life support and the team of medical staff gave up trying to save her life, only the babies. Within a week, they were all three dead. Gone was the beautiful young wife. Gone was the promise of 2 children. Gone were his dreams of a life with his lover and friend because death parted them.

Did it have to happen that way? No. He could have chosen to save his wife and try again for babies (which is what the doctors recommended). But he felt that it was God's will that the babies be saved. He thought that God was telling him to save the babies no matter what.

For her parents though, it was the worst decision he could have made. They begged him to allow the doctors to try to save her. They didn't have the opportunity for more children. Their daughter was their only child and the light of their life. Even many of the church members felt that he had made the wrong decision. But of course there was support for him from other members of the congregation and the minister himself completely supported him and comforted him.

The memories and pain were difficult for him and so he chose to move to another state to get away from the constant reminders in our close-knit town. Within a couple of years, he was remarried, appointed as an assistant pastor of a church and continued his work as a summertime traveling evangelist. He and his new wife eventually had 3 children. His life was good.

Personally I don't know how he lives with himself. Oh yes I do... he convinced himself it was God's plan for his first wife to fall ill and die with her unborn fetuses. It was God's plan and he was merely doing what God told him to do when he chose to put her in a coma and on life support to try to save the babies.

It was a nightmare 30 years ago and continues to be a nightmare for those of us who loved that beautiful, dark-haired, fabulously talented young woman.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

BJean: What a horribly sad story that didn't have to end that way. I wonder if husbands would choose to let their wives die to save the baby if they were told that they too would have to die if their wife did.

Your bil's young wife never got a chance to live her life. To have more children and watch them grow. This story illustrates real life and how those who make the wrong decision can affect so many people. Very sad.

[rodriguezequal 3]

I would just like to ask Patty if she follows the teachings of the bible in all things? and if so, has that always been the case all her life. Also do you apply these values to all lives that are in the process of being created or just human ones.

Yes, I try to follow the teachings of the bible in all things. I sometimes fail, though, as I am only human. But I do try.

I apply these values to humans only. God gave us the animals to be a blessing to us. He gave them to us for food to eat and for our comfort. Animals do not have souls, and therefore, have only this life to live with no concern for all eternity as humans do.

There is no proof that animals have no souls. Why would your God do through so much trouble to have them gathered two by two if he cared not for them as he does for his "children"? Why would he care what happened to animals if they were nothing but empty shells? Wow sometimes I just don't understand how you can be so loving and compationate on one hand and then turn around and go in the oposite direction!

[rodriguezequal 3]

And jessress, I will share a gut wrenching decision that my former brother-in-law had to make when he was newly married and in his mid-twenties.

He was a minister and evangalist and actively involved in the Southern Baptist convention. He and his stunningly beautiful wife had graduated top of their class in college. He went to seminary she sang like an angel. Their life together had the promise of much love, beauty and service to the church.

She became pregnant with twins. They were estatic. Their extended family of the large congregation where they worshipped, was thrilled for them.

Then she very quickly became sick with a mysterious illness that was confounding to her ob/gyn. He hospitalized her. Specialists were called in on the case and the doctors quickly concluded that the only way to save her was to take the babies, because it was the pregnancy that was threatening her life.

She was so sick she was in alternate states of unconscious and delerium. They asked her dear sweet husband to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy to save his wife. Or alternatively, they said, they could induce a coma, put her on life support and try to just keep her alive long enough to allow the twins to become viable. What a horrendous decision he was faced with.

He decided that they should do all they could to save the babies. So she was quickly intubated, put on life support and the team of medical staff gave up trying to save her life, only the babies. Within a week, they were all three dead. Gone was the beautiful young wife. Gone was the promise of 2 children. Gone were his dreams of a life with his lover and friend because death parted them.

Did it have to happen that way? No. He could have chosen to save his wife and try again for babies (which is what the doctors recommended). But he felt that it was God's will that the babies be saved. He thought that God was telling him to save the babies no matter what.

For her parents though, it was the worst decision he could have made. They begged him to allow the doctors to try to save her. They didn't have the opportunity for more children. Their daughter was their only child and the light of their life. Even many of the church members felt that he had made the wrong decision. But of course there was support for him from other members of the congregation and the minister himself completely supported him and comforted him.

The memories and pain were difficult for him and so he chose to move to another state to get away from the constant reminders in our close-knit town. Within a couple of years, he was remarried, appointed as an assistant pastor of a church and continued his work as a summertime traveling evangelist. He and his new wife eventually had 3 children. His life was good.

Personally I don't know how he lives with himself. Oh yes I do... he convinced himself it was God's plan for his first wife to fall ill and die with her unborn fetuses. It was God's plan and he was merely doing what God told him to do when he chose to put her in a coma and on life support to try to save the babies.

It was a nightmare 30 years ago and continues to be a nightmare for those of us who loved that beautiful, dark-haired, fabulously talented young woman.

This is exactly why at my age I have a living will and paperwork that states my wishes in certain circumstances! Don't wait until it's too late! I almost lost my life, but thankfully my husband shares the same beliefs as me and we had discussed what should be done before!

[BJean 16]

Thank you C'sM. Needless to say I've never gotten over it. I still want to cry when I think about her.

I don't wish him ill will, and I know he must have endured a lot of pain over the entire thing. But I have never understood how he was able to fall in love and remarry and start another family so quickly after her death.

It has made me consider abortion and God's will in a different way than some people do. And I can tell you that no situation is simple.

Women who use abortion as birth control (are there really such women?) are plainly stupid and need help in their lives. But women who have complications that require them to make a decision, however painful, to terminate a pregnancy, should not be judged by others.

[BJean 16]

You're smart for having a living will and discussing your wishes with your husband.

[Humming Bird 275]

In the case of the beautiful young woman that BJean told us about, I would not have considered that an abortion in my mind.

I know it would be technically, but it just seems so different to me.

There are those who don't use birth control methods, or the methods they use fail. They get pregnant. Some choose to abort the pregnancy early on when all you have to do is take an oral Rx and it induces a sort of period. ( I agree and support in this case)

There are those who have later term abortions ....... I may not agree with some of those.

But in the case of this young couple who were expecting twins, I think the husband/daddy made the wrong choice. With the choice he made, he chose death of 3.

[pattygreen 5]

I want to make sure that you all understand my position on that . I do not feel that God would ask us to give up our lives for the sake of someone elses life.(the mothers) I believe that every woman has the right to defend herself from death.

I believe that every person should be allowed to defend themselves from death without repercussion. But according to our laws, the unborn baby is not given that right. He can not defend himself from an abortion.

If a woman finds herself in the position while pregnant that her life is at stake, then, and only then, should an abortion be performed.

[pattygreen 5]

There is no proof that animals have no souls. Why would your God do through so much trouble to have them gathered two by two if he cared not for them as he does for his "children"? Why would he care what happened to animals if they were nothing but empty shells? Wow sometimes I just don't understand how you can be so loving and compationate on one hand and then turn around and go in the oposite direction!

I didn't say that animals were not an important part of God's creation. I just said that they are here today and gone tomorrow. They are not like people who have eternal souls. Jesus did not die for the souls of animals, but for the souls of mankind. They are more important to him than the animals. Otherwise you might be hearing the stories of how he died for them instead of mankind.

BTW, how is my stating that animals don't have souls uncompassionate and unloving? Did I create them that way? no. I didn't have a say in whether they would live eternally or not. So how does that make me uncompassionate? wow!

[BJean 16]

Hummingbird, the tough part of it was that the husband had to make the choice at all. I thought the doctors should have just done all they could to save the life of the mother because I thought her life was something that was a sure thing. Even if they tried to save the babies, there were no guarantees for them - so many things would have had to happen for them to be born alive and healthy. Their odds weren't good. The girl, on the other hand, should have had every opportunity that the medical profession could have given her, for a long, healthy life.

Not that I wouldn't have wanted to save the babies, if possible. But having to make that choice, I can't imagine giving her a death sentence in favor of 2 tiny little unknowns. Which is what happened. And the babies weren't able to be saved after all. It was a huge bungled, emotional mess that culminated in the loss of a beautiful young woman who deserved to live.

It's one of the primary reasons that I do not want the government intervening in people's lives, insisting that women absolutely do not have a choice.

I agree that is should not have been considered an abortion (and that term was never used), but it was, in effect, the decision that he had to face.