who supports right to choose

[Cleo's Mom 257]

There hasn't been a post you've typed that doesn't have some kind of hateful put down of anyone who doesn't think the way you do.

Not only isn't that true, but I try not to make personal insults part of my posts. I'm sure I have but not usually. I will, however, call out anyone who I think is perpetuating a lie or misperception. I will give my opinion and add facts to back it up.

But to say that I haven't made a post that doesn't have a hateful putdown of anyone who doesn't think the way I do is just another of your broad generalizations that not only isn't true but offensive. :tt1:

[pattygreen 5]

Well, I must say this thread has got me thinking...

and thinking...

and thinking.......

I'm also very frustrated that after all this thinking I can't come to a firm conclusion. When asked if I am pro-life or pro-choice my knee-jerk reaction is to say pro-life. I would answer pro-life because I personally would not have an abortion (unless my life is being threatened by the early pregnancy). I will tell you right now that my answer on the poll was that I am pro-life except in cases where the life of the mother is threatened.

But I read and read and read some more and have to admit that I swayed a little bit when I considered that I too do not want the government to take over my choices. What might they do next? Do I believe that abortion is morally wrong? In most cases yes- but who am I to judge? For someone who doesn't believe that a life is being taken it would not be morally wrong- it's all relative. And just because I beleive it's wrong doesn't mean that belief should be forced on EVERYONE.

Why not, Jess? People have many differing beliefs about all the laws we have. Beliefs of all kinds are forced on people everywhere with all our laws. My son feels there is absolutely nothing wrong with smoking pot. He says it's not as bad as alcohol is. Yet, the laws force him to smoke in hiding.

I do, however, cringe at the stories of women who have had 4, 5, or 6 abortions- have you ever heard of birth control? I do realize that it isn't always 100% effective but it's definitely more effective than nothing at all!

I think that one of the things that really bothers me about abortions is that I know more than a few women who have suffered miscarriages or who have not been able to have children. I feel like it's so unfair that someone who didn't want it (or for whatever reason chose abortion) would be blessed with such a gift when there are women that want it desperately that haven't been able.

I have another dilemma from the analogy provided earlier about if exterminating the Jewish was legal. (sorry, I know this is inflammatory but I can see its relevance)I knowthis is just hypothetical but in this situation, how could I just say, 'well I'm not going to participate but I'm also not going to do anything about it. I know it's not the same thing, but still. On the other hand, abortion is legal and I'm not going to go around harassing people about their choice.

I'm not going to go to abortion clinics or campaign or anything against it, but when asked how I feel about the legalization of it, I will alwys give my strong response to anyone that I am totally against the killings that this country allows daily.

I think that in order for something to be called murder there has to be mallicious intent. I don't think that every woman having an abortion is saying 'take that, fetus!'. I'm sure it's a very, very difficult situation for most (except for maybe those who seem to use it as birth control). But I also do believe that some form of life begins at conception.

I do agree that women who have abortions are not thinking that they are murdering anyone. They are focused on their 'problem' and want it to go away. But it is a fact that they are murdering none the less.

I brought this subject up to my fiancee last night and I must say that I was VERY surprised at his response. I asked him if he thought an abortion would be acceptable under any circumstance. He said no. I said, 'what if the mother's life was in danger,' he said no. If it's God's will for you to die in order for your child to live, it's your time.' This scares me. I have to say that if a doctor was telling me that I AM going to die if I don't have an abortion, I think I would have to. Am I being selfish? I don't want to die. I don't want my baby to die either. I try to think about it this way: my 6 wk old fetus is a tiny, comfy, content life. He doesn't know anything yet. He hasn't seen anything yet. But I have. I've seen corn blowing in a breezy summer night. I've experienced true love. I've made sacrifices. I've made mistakes. I've been disappointed. I've been elated. I would never get to see my mom, my dad, my brothers, grandparents, nieces, nephews again. Which of us would be more valuable to humanity? I can't answer that question- again, maybe I'm just being selfish.

I believe that every person has a right to defend themselves. If she is going to die from carrying and delivering her baby, then, and only then, should she be able to live by aborting her own death sentence. I know that other pro-life people do not agree with this view, but I believe it is the right one.

I do consider myself a non-religious Christian, which in itself is something I'm sure some people would have a problem with.

Definitely not me. I do not like 'religion'. I prefer people to have a personal relationship with God, one on one, without the interference of organizations and their made up rules and ideas.

I am of the belief that Jesus died for my sins. I think that says it all right there. We are all sinners- that's why Jesus died for us. I believe that you should try to be kind to others, I believe that you should help somebody if you can, I believe that you should try to be tolerant when dealing with someone who has different beliefs than yourself.

When I get ticked off at a bad driver, or a cranky cashier just as I reach the point of irritation I try to remind myself that I don't know what happened to that person today. They're grandpa may have just died. They could be going through a rough divorce. I know that the day I found out my Dad was diagnosed with prostate cancer I was out of sorts, I hope no one would hold that against me. (They caught it early, he did some extensive radiation and is now doing great (knock on wood! Thank you Lord!))

I believe that Jesus loves us all, despite our sins. I don't believe that in order to have a relationship with God you have to attend Church every Sunday and Wednesday and doing so doesn't automatically make you a 'good person' it doesn't make you a bad person either. Just like I would never peg someone with different beliefs as me as a 'bad person,' it's not my place to judge. I feel like we should always try to be understanding and treat others with respect. I'm not saying I've been perfect with this, but who is?

I agree.

Psalm 51:5

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Here the Bible states that David [and all mankind] were sinful at the moment of conception. Surely we could not use the term "sinful" to describe a piece of tissue that is not alive! To be "sinful" you would at least have to be alive! As humans we have inherited a sin nature [a.k.a. the flesh]. This sin nature was inherited at the moment of conception. A sinful nature is not found in "primordial tissue" that is without life. The term "sinner" refers then to those who are alive.

[pattygreen 5]

One thing I noticed on this thread was that there was NO response to the clip I posted concerning "The Silent Scream". Did anyone view it? It showed the abortion process and what it does to the poor, undeserving, innocent baby.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Anyone who intentially kills another human being is considered a murderer.

"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves;

ensure justice for those who are perishing." Proverbs 31:8

"The chief purpose of government is to protect life. Abandon that and you have abandoned all."

Thomas Jefferson

So if a women knows she's pregnant and does drugs or drinks and her baby dies isn't that intentionally killing the embryo?

[pattygreen 5]

So if a women knows she's pregnant and does drugs or drinks and her baby dies isn't that intentionally killing the embryo?

We have a hard enough time trying to get the laws to support the abolishing of the murders that go on with abortions, never mind trying to figure out if someone intentionally killed their baby with drugs or overeating or alcohol. Let's stick with the abortion issue.

Just so you know how I feel about your question, it's yes. If she intentionally does drugs or drinks alcohol in hopes to kill her baby, then she is attempting murder.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Exodus 21

22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

1) If a woman gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury--i.e. the baby lives without harm,

then a fine results to compensate for the assault.

2) If a woman gives birth prematurely, and the baby dies, then the assailant is to be given the death penalty. This point is HUGE!!! What God is saying here is that the value and worth of an adult man is equal to the value and worth of an unborn fetus who was young enough, or injured enough, to die. God equates the loss of an unborn baby as the loss of a life, for He says, "you are to take life for life,..." This point cannot be emphasized too strongly. God considers the unborn baby alive, and the loss of that life is considered murder. This murder is punishable with the death penalty. This verse demonstrates three truths:

a) The unborn's life is equivalent in value to an adult's life in God's sight

:tt1: This also outlines God's Law against criminal feticide.

c) The killing of the unborn is murder

What about the people that don't believe in your God? God doesn't make law! Just because God sees the lives as equal doesn't mean science does! God's sight has no impact on my beliefs or my morals....I could careless what your God see as law or right...he's not my God

[Humming Bird 275]

Hummingbird, You are right. My response was uncalled for. I'm sorry. Will you please forgive me? Sometimes people are so rude and disrespectful to me, that I respond in kind not even realizing that I am being the same way. I apologize. Patty

Thank You Patty.

btw .... I'm still pro choice :tt1:

[pattygreen 5]

Job 31:15

Did not He who made me in the womb make them [Job's servants]?

Did not the Same One for us both within our mothers?

1) We are a unique creation of God. We were formed directly by God before we were born. This means that unborn babies are special to God. Should we abort a baby that God is working on? Should we interrupt Him and destroy his "wonderful" masterpiece????

2) The womb is intended to be a place where God works His creative action, not where man works his destructive action.

[rodriguezequal 3]

So if a women does something that cause a spontaneous abortion then in your world you would want her arrested? After all that talk about drugs being illegal and blah blah blah and your own son's a pot head? I am surprised with him breaking the law and sinning so regularly that you don't just turn your back

[rodriguezequal 3]

So we're back to just reading Bible quote after Bible quote from you again? Let me just say if anything was to change my mind it wouldn't be someone pounding my brain with Bible vomit

[pattygreen 5]

The Bible specifically condemns partial birth abortion as against God's will

Exodus 1

15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"

19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive."

20 So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous.

**The king of Egypt commanded the midwives to kill a male baby just as he becomes visible from the birth canal. This is known today as partial birth abortion. The midwives FEARED GOD [because doing so was against God's will] and did not do it and so God blessed the midwives

1) Notice that even the king of Egypt recognized partial birth abortion as murder when he told the midwives to KILL a baby as he becomes visible.

2) God blessed the Hebrew midwives for not carrying out partial-birth abortion

[rodriguezequal 3]

I COULD CARELESS WHAT YOU FRIGGIN GOD SAYS DANG! Enough with all the Bible quotes seriously. Have your own opinion and use your own words. If you run out of things to say then just say nothing. Your God has no impact on how I live my life and it never will

[pattygreen 5]

God tells us to choose His ways, instead of our own ways; shameful acts done secretly do not please Him.

Proverbs 1

29 Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD,

30 since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke,

31 they will eat the fruit of their ways

Ephesians 5

10 and find out what pleases the Lord.

11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.

God tells us to CHOOSE to fear the Lord. He tells us to find out what pleases Him. Is God pleased when we end a life that He was in the middle of creating? We should exert a lot of energy and prayer, and Bible study into finding out what pleases the Lord. Often times what pleases Him is not what we would normally do.

Have you ever noticed the secrecy behind abortions? Women can go secretly to have them done. Even underage girls don't have to tell their parents! when doctors get together, they often talk about their work and what they do. I have NEVER heard of an abortion provider openly talking about his/hers abortions that were performed that day. There is a mild to moderate amount of secrecy and even shame that surrounds abortion. Most women feel shameful even to mention what they did. It is rare indeed for a woman to talk as openly about her abortion as she would a hysterectomy, tubal ligation, or other gynecological procedures. Likewise, it is as rare for a doctor to talk as openly about his abortion practice as he would other parts of his practice. This is truly a shameful, secretive practice.

Find out what pleases the Lord!!! ___________________________________________________________________________

[btrieger 21]

[tdslf1 0]

Original thought. Now that would be a concept.