who supports right to choose

[BJean 16]

Just as abortion is legal and should be,( as far as you're concerned)why not make drugs legal then? Duh! Because they shouldn't be!!! Just like abortion shouldn't be.

patty: "Just because someone might use drugs in the back alley illegally (like they might have an abortion in the back alley illegally) doean't mean we should make them legal so that those who think of doing that won't get hurt."

Bad reasoning. Having people do their drugs in a back alley really isn't why we make them illegal. It has to do with the indirect effect it has on society. And we make them illegal even though the direct result of someone doing illegal drugs is a virtually victimless crime. And although there are many negative ways that society is affected by people doing illegal drugs, it has been proven over a long period of time that making drugs illegal isn't working for us.

We need to solve the problem of people doing illegal drugs instead of being so closed minded to alternative ways to keep people from doing them. If legalizing drugs, thereby creating a more straight forward way of dealing with the problem (including having control of the drugs), is a reasonable alternative, then we should do it.

Edited January 8, 2010 by BJean

[BJean 16]

Making abortion illegal didn't work for us. It didn't keep women who needed an abortion from getting one. It made them law-breakers as it did the compassionate doctors who helped the women. And it made back street abortions a fact of life.

The butchers who did them were able to take advantage of desperate women and often either maim or kill them.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Pattygreen: Christians (usually conservative republicans) for the most part try to live moral, virtuous, nonsinful lives.

First of all, "conservative republican" is redundant, because they are all conservative. I don't think there are any moderate republicans left particularly among those elected to office.

However, I just wonder if it is MORAL to mislead or outright lie, because listen to what these conservative republicans have said:

Dana Perino said on Fox: We did not have a domestic attack during bush's administration.

A month later Mary Matalin said: bush inherited 9/11 from Clinton.

Yesterday, Rudy Giuliani said that we never had a domestic attack under bush but we had one under Obama.

Now, I ask you - do these people think the American public is really that stupid? Apparently. Those on the right just make things up and keep repeating it. And when they repeat it often enough eventually some people begin to believe it.

They reduce things to some emotional, hate filled sound bite: death panels, obamacare, socialism, hitler, nazi.

This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side.

[~Michelle~ 0]

Technically a miscarriage that happens before 16 weeks or something is considered a spontaneous abortion...so my question to PG was should those women be charge with murder too.

Oh...ok...I understand now.

[BJean 16]

C'sM: "This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side."

That's exactly right. They can't argue the merits because they'll lose and they know it. The Republicans are experts at lying and exaggerating and distorting the truth. And that's what we're supposed to be impressed with because they SAY they are Christians? Talk is cheap and by gosh actions always speak louder than words.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Lol sorry I can be confusing sometimes :tt1:

[jessress87 0]

Well, I must say this thread has got me thinking...

and thinking...

and thinking.......

I'm also very frustrated that after all this thinking I can't come to a firm conclusion. When asked if I am pro-life or pro-choice my knee-jerk reaction is to say pro-life. I would answer pro-life because I personally would not have an abortion (unless my life is being threatened by the early pregnancy). I will tell you right now that my answer on the poll was that I am pro-life except in cases where the life of the mother is threatened.

But I read and read and read some more and have to admit that I swayed a little bit when I considered that I too do not want the government to take over my choices. What might they do next? Do I believe that abortion is morally wrong? In most cases yes- but who am I to judge? For someone who doesn't believe that a life is being taken it would not be morally wrong- it's all relative. And just because I beleive it's wrong doesn't mean that belief should be forced on EVERYONE.

I do, however, cringe at the stories of women who have had 4, 5, or 6 abortions- have you ever heard of birth control? I do realize that it isn't always 100% effective but it's definitely more effective than nothing at all!

I think that one of the things that really bothers me about abortions is that I know more than a few women who have suffered miscarriages or who have not been able to have children. I feel like it's so unfair that someone who didn't want it (or for whatever reason chose abortion) would be blessed with such a gift when there are women that want it desperately that haven't been able.

I have another dilemma from the analogy provided earlier about if exterminating the Jewish was legal. (sorry, I know this is inflammatory but I can see its relevance)I knowthis is just hypothetical but in this situation, how could I just say, 'well I'm not going to participate but I'm also not going to do anything about it. I know it's not the same thing, but still. On the other hand, abortion is legal and I'm not going to go around harassing people about their choice.

I think that in order for something to be called murder there has to be mallicious intent. I don't think that every woman having an abortion is saying 'take that, fetus!'. I'm sure it's a very, very difficult situation for most (except for maybe those who seem to use it as birth control). But I also do believe that some form of life begins at conception.

I brought this subject up to my fiancee last night and I must say that I was VERY surprised at his response. I asked him if he thought an abortion would be acceptable under any circumstance. He said no. I said, 'what if the mother's life was in danger,' he said no. If it's God's will for you to die in order for your child to live, it's your time.' This scares me. I have to say that if a doctor was telling me that I AM going to die if I don't have an abortion, I think I would have to. Am I being selfish? I don't want to die. I don't want my baby to die either. I try to think about it this way: my 6 wk old fetus is a tiny, comfy, content life. He doesn't know anything yet. He hasn't seen anything yet. But I have. I've seen corn blowing in a breezy summer night. I've experienced true love. I've made sacrifices. I've made mistakes. I've been disappointed. I've been elated. I would never get to see my mom, my dad, my brothers, grandparents, nieces, nephews again. Which of us would be more valuable to humanity? I can't answer that question- again, maybe I'm just being selfish.

I do consider myself a non-religious Christian, which in itself is something I'm sure some people would have a problem with. I am of the belief that Jesus died for my sins. I think that says it all right there. We are all sinners- that's why Jesus died for us. I believe that you should try to be kind to others, I believe that you should help somebody if you can, I believe that you should try to be tolerant when dealing with someone who has different beliefs than yourself.

When I get ticked off at a bad driver, or a cranky cashier just as I reach the point of irritation I try to remind myself that I don't know what happened to that person today. They're grandpa may have just died. They could be going through a rough divorce. I know that the day I found out my Dad was diagnosed with prostate cancer I was out of sorts, I hope no one would hold that against me. (They caught it early, he did some extensive radiation and is now doing great (knock on wood! Thank you Lord!))

I believe that Jesus loves us all, despite our sins. I don't believe that in order to have a relationship with God you have to attend Church every Sunday and Wednesday and doing so doesn't automatically make you a 'good person' it doesn't make you a bad person either. Just like I would never peg someone with different beliefs as me as a 'bad person,' it's not my place to judge. I feel like we should always try to be understanding and treat others with respect. I'm not saying I've been perfect with this, but who is?

[jessress87 0]

I would also like to say that I am a little bit troubled about the Republican & Democrat generalizations. A republican isn't any more likely to be a scum-bag than a democrat and vice-versa. Listing all the crummy things that republicans have done is meaningless when there is an equally long list of crummy things democrats have done. Both parties have their A-holes. I think it's unfair for anyone to throw out a generalization like that.

*steps off soapbox*:tt1:

Edited January 9, 2010 by jessress87

[Cleo's Mom 257]

jessress: Thank you for your thoughful post. One thing that you said requires that I respond to it.

You absolutely have the right to live if your pregnancy were to jeopardize your life. And I am appalled that anyone would think otherwise. Make sure that when your fiancee becomes your husband that you appoint someone else as your power of attorney because if you find yourself in that position you will die.

You are already life, living and with people loving you and depending on you (if perhaps you have other children). Even if you believe life begins at conception - weighing whether the mom's life or the embryo's or fetus's life has more value - well the mom's does. And we place value on human life all the time in terms of how much we are willing to spend to save one life, in jury awards for wrongful deaths, etc.. The mom's life always trumps that of the fetus when the mom's life is in jeopardy. Always. No debate in my view.

So, no you are not a bad person and shouldn't feel guilty about feeling that way and wanting to live, but your fiancee already told you how he feels so do NOT put him in the position of making that life and death medical decision for you. Give another family member that agrees with you that authority.

Again, thank you for your opinions and post.

[jessress87 0]

jessress: Thank you for your thoughful post. One thing that you said requires that I respond to it.

You absolutely have the right to live if your pregnancy were to jeopardize your life. And I am appalled that anyone would think otherwise. Make sure that when your fiancee becomes your husband that you appoint someone else as your power of attorney because if you find yourself in that position you will die.

You are already life, living and with people loving you and depending on you (if perhaps you have other children). Even if you believe life begins at conception - weighing whether the mom's life or the embryo's or fetus's life has more value - well the mom's does. And we place value on human life all the time in terms of how much we are willing to spend to save one life, in jury awards for wrongful deaths, etc.. The mom's life always trumps that of the fetus when the mom's life is in jeopardy. Always. No debate in my view.

So, no you are not a bad person and shouldn't feel guilty about feeling that way and wanting to live, but your fiancee already told you how he feels so do NOT put him in the position of making that life and death medical decision for you. Give another family member that agrees with you that authority.

Again, thank you for your opinions and post.

Thank you for the reply. I must say I was really shocked about what he said. I think that if we were actually in that circumstance and losing me was a real possiblity he might change his mind, however, I don't want to wait til' the last minute to figure that one out. He can be a little unreasonable sometimes, INHO :tt1:.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Thank you for the reply. I must say I was really shocked about what he said. I think that if we were actually in that circumstance and losing me was a real possiblity he might change his mind, however, I don't want to wait til' the last minute to figure that one out. He can be a little unreasonable sometimes, INHO :tt1:.

I don't think you want to take that chance that he might change his mind. He might not and in this case, it literally would be a case of life and death.

Also, in most cases where the mother's life is in jeopardy, if the pregnancy isn't terminated BOTH mother and baby die. What sense does that make?

[pattygreen 5]

Patty, you really twist things sometimes.

Please do not talk down to me by telling me to look up words and saying "Duh!" . I did go to college for a very long time and have a degree. I took many biology classes including embryology. I know exactly what a fetus is and what an abortion is. I know what an analogy is. I'm am 45 years old and have a grown son and a grandson. I live in the real world and have real experience with many issues like this one. Please don't dumb it down.

I actually agree with you on many or your rants and raves on other issues. I was raised Christian and to have good marals and values.

I am a registered republican. I did not vote for Obama. You are out to cut down and fight everyone so much that you are biting off your own foot sometimes. I am not as heavily involved in politics or religion as you and do not quote the bible. I comment on this issue of pro choice/pro life as a woman. Don't talk down to me please.

Hummingbird, You are right. My response was uncalled for. I'm sorry. Will you please forgive me? Sometimes people are so rude and disrespectful to me, that I respond in kind not even realizing that I am being the same way. I apologize. Patty

[pattygreen 5]

Pattygreen: Christians (usually conservative republicans) for the most part try to live moral, virtuous, nonsinful lives.

First of all, "conservative republican" is redundant, because they are all conservative. I don't think there are any moderate republicans left particularly among those elected to office.

However, I just wonder if it is MORAL to mislead or outright lie, because listen to what these conservative republicans have said:

Dana Perino said on Fox: We did not have a domestic attack during bush's administration.

A month later Mary Matalin said: bush inherited 9/11 from Clinton.

Yesterday, Rudy Giuliani said that we never had a domestic attack under bush but we had one under Obama.

Now, I ask you - do these people think the American public is really that stupid? Apparently. Those on the right just make things up and keep repeating it. And when they repeat it often enough eventually some people begin to believe it.

They reduce things to some emotional, hate filled sound bite: death panels, obamacare, socialism, hitler, nazi.

This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side.

There hasn't been a post you've typed that doesn't have some kind of hateful put down of anyone who doesn't think the way you do.

[pattygreen 5]

But why? You don't know there's no blame. What if she did drugs or drank or was obese or too thin....what if it was her fault....should she be imprision....it's an abortion after all...that's taking the life of an innocent

Anyone who intentially kills another human being is considered a murderer.

"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves;

ensure justice for those who are perishing." Proverbs 31:8

"The chief purpose of government is to protect life. Abandon that and you have abandoned all."

Thomas Jefferson

[pattygreen 5]

Exodus 21

22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

1) If a woman gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury--i.e. the baby lives without harm,

then a fine results to compensate for the assault.

2) If a woman gives birth prematurely, and the baby dies, then the assailant is to be given the death penalty. This point is HUGE!!! What God is saying here is that the value and worth of an adult man is equal to the value and worth of an unborn fetus who was young enough, or injured enough, to die. God equates the loss of an unborn baby as the loss of a life, for He says, "you are to take life for life,..." This point cannot be emphasized too strongly. God considers the unborn baby alive, and the loss of that life is considered murder. This murder is punishable with the death penalty. This verse demonstrates three truths:

a) The unborn's life is equivalent in value to an adult's life in God's sight

:tt1: This also outlines God's Law against criminal feticide.

c) The killing of the unborn is murder