who supports right to choose

[rodriguezequal 3]

I do not mean to bash all christians...just the ones that are like Patty...

[Lydiafree 0]

Is it just me, or does everyone see the gigantic paradox in that statement?

It's not just you. It's not only a gigantic paradox, it's utter dribbling nonsense.

She's essentially saying that despite being omnipotent and omniscient, god doesn't control anything. Which makes him not just completely useless, but callously so.

[Lydiafree 0]

There seems to be a lot of christian bashing on here. I thought we were all supposed to respect each other's belief's (or nonbeliefs), so when did it become acceptable to bash the christian belief? I understand why some of you feel the way you do about christianity because of the way patty talks to people. I don't like her anymore than the rest of you, and I don't like how she judges people and the way she talks to people. But please try to understand, the way patty is is NOT the way true christians act.

What specifically do you consider to be "christian bashing" here on this thread? Is it criticism of the silliness and nonsense inherent in religion (ALL of them), or is it specific to the people who believe in it?

I ask because "you're bashing christians" is something a vocal atheist will hear quite often, despite their merely criticizing the belief system. This is because religious people seem to view their belief system as a deeply personal thing. I haven't seen anyone actually bashing christians themselves, so I might have missed what you're referring to.

I will always have an issue with the absurd nonsense people believe in. This does not mean I think the people themselves are unintelligent, etc. It means I think what they believe in is.

That said, this: "But please try to understand, the way patty is is NOT the way true christians act" is the No True Scotsman Fallacy. Her interpretation of the confusing garbled nonsense that is religion is different from others, surely, but no less "true" than any others.

[rodriguezequal 3]

And why isn't it okay to "bash" Christians, but it's okay for patty to "bash" ALL "nonbelievers" that's crap

[pattygreen 5]

Yes patty, it is definitely "hard teaching" and a very hard lesson that some of us fail to or refuse to embrace. Do you have the nerve to try to understand why?

I understand why. I was there once. Some people just want to do what they want to do, and they feel that if they confess to believe in God, then they would have to abide by his teachings and they feel that it's more 'fun' to live the way they are. Some think that they will have to change. When in fact, it is a lie from the Devil. It isn't more 'fun' to live as an unbeliever. There is no peace. And they don't have to change themselves. God will change them gradually as they grow in Him.

Or is it enough for you to just write us all off as devil worshippers who are bringing us closer to the second coming?

Do you see how you over exagerate and dramatize what I say? It is true that In the spiritual war that goes on there are only 2 sides (Gods and Satans), but are you worshipping him if you don't choose God? unknowingly you are choosing Satans side, but not worshipping Satan.

A very few of the reasons that billions of people who do not believe in a person having to be "born again" the way you define it, in order to get into heaven, fall within some of the lines below.

"Born agains" have taught us that they believe that they are above the law because they're doing God's will. They believe that people like Dr. Tiller must be stopped, even if it means murdering him in cold blood in his church.

No. Dr. Tiller's murderer was a man who was mentally insane, just like all the other murderers out there (christian or not). Born againers do not believe they are above the law. And killing people is not Gods work.

"Born agains" have taught us that they are the judges and jury here on earth and that they are equipped to do it because they are uniquely qualified by having been "born again" and are simply following the teachings of the Bible and they are doing God's will. Timothy McVeigh was a "born again" who believed he was carrying out God's will.

And the Craigs list killer wasn't a professed christian. So what? Just because you claim to be a christian doesn't mean you can do no wrong. People who kill others, no matter what they believe are sick people. What they do shouldn't reflect on anyone else.

"Born agains' have taught us that it is the right thing to do to leave a woman to die if she finds that she's experiencing a pregnancy gone wrong, rather than allowing her to have a physically needed late term abortion.

Born againers feel that if a mothers life is in danger, then, and only then, is having an abortion and killing the baby acceptable. (self defense)

Billions of people do not believe in the "born again" version of religion because billions have never even heard the term. How unjust are your "born again" teachings if they would allow billions of people to go to hell just because they have not heard of it or been given the chance to choose be "born again"? And what of all those people who were born and died before the concept of being "born again" the way you teach it, was even thought up?

The term 'born again' is fairly new, but the concept of being filled with the Holy Spirit at the new birth has been around since Christ's death on the cross. God gives every man the opportunity to accept him as their God. He says that if noone tells them verbally, then he has given them nature as a witness to his existance. All of those who lived and died before Jesus' death had the prophets of old to hear the truth of a coming Messiah (Jesus) who would save them from their sins. If they placed their faith in this Messiah who was to come, they would be saved.

And what about all the other denominations of Christians? "Born agains" have decided that because other Christians don't require or believe in the "born again" philosophy, even though they believe in God and the Bible and lead Christian lives, those Christians are going to hell because they haven't been "born again"? AND they are devil worshippers?

There are born again Christians in EVERY christian denomination.

Can you possibly understand that the exclusionary teachings of the "born agains" are similar to some of the teachings of the Muslim terrorists who fight against us? And if you can understand that, can you understand why perfectly intelligent, well-educated, sane, rational people do not believe that being "born again" is the unique qualification that God has put forth that allows a person to enter into his kingdom or that it makes any more sense than what Allah has promised certain extremist Muslims?

John 3:3 Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

These are not my words, but Gods.

As for me, I can't believe in a religion that teaches that really good people are going to hell because they havent been "born again" the way you teach it. And I can't believe that some really bad people aren't going to hell, just because they claim to be "born again."

Sorry to hear that. Then you will be left out. And you can't say you didn't know. Salvation is NOT about the good or bad things we do. Those things will be dealt with by God, either here on earth, or in Heaven or Hell when we get there. Don't worry, those who do wrong will get theirs, and those who do right will be rewarded according to their deeds. BUT, Salvation is about accepting God as your creator and the ruler of the world, and putting your faith in him as the one to get you from here to there. That's all. It has nothing to do with whether you were a good person or not.

I challenge you to open your heart to other beliefs and philosophies instead of being so anti-people. Because it seems obvious that what you're teaching is difficult to grasp unless you are a fully brainwashed sheep, drinking the kool-aid.

I'm sorry, but my heart belongs to Jesus, the one true God. I will never open my heart to other beliefs and philosophies, for they are all false to me. That would be a rejection of God to me, and I would never do that. I love him too much and I believe in him.

...................................................................

[pattygreen 5]

It's not just you. It's not only a gigantic paradox, it's utter dribbling nonsense.

She's essentially saying that despite being omnipotent and omniscient, god doesn't control anything. Which makes him not just completely useless, but callously so.

God controls everything but mans free will to choose whom he will serve. Would you want robots or puppets for children who are programmed to love you and obey you? This is why he gives us free will.

[rodriguezequal 3]

So if born again is a new thing...where have people been going when they die if they were not born again? Did they shoot straight to hell?

[rodriguezequal 3]

God controls everything but mans free will to choose whom he will serve. Would you want robots or puppets for children who are programmed to love you and obey you? This is why he gives us free will.

So God controls everything but man's free will? or mans free will to choose whom he serves?

[pattygreen 5]

And why isn't it okay to "bash" Christians, but it's okay for patty to "bash" ALL "nonbelievers" that's crap

I'm not bashing anyone. Have I ever called you a name? I am simply typing out my beliefs as God has given them to me in the bible, and responding to the posts. If you feel that I have something against you personally, I don't. Just because you don't agree with my claims, doesn't mean I am bashing you. Everyone has a right to believe as they choose.

[pattygreen 5]

So if born again is a new thing...where have people been going when they die if they were not born again? Did they shoot straight to hell?

I didn't say it's a new thing. I said the 'term' is new to christians. They used to just be called 'believers'. Born again people have been around since Christ's death.

[pattygreen 5]

So God controls everything but man's free will? or mans free will to choose whom he serves?

His free will to choose anything. Including who he will serve.

[rodriguezequal 3]

youve called me a murderer...

[rodriguezequal 3]

His free will to choose anything. Including who he will serve.

then he doesn't know everything...he does not now what we will chose

[pattygreen 5]

youve called me a murderer...

I am sorry about calling you a murderer. It was directed in general for all women who kill their unborn babies. Sorry, but this is what I feel they are doing when they abort. Whether they think they are or not.

[pattygreen 5]

then he doesn't know everything...he does not now what we will chose

Yes, he does. Before you were even born he knew you and he knew what your choices would be.