who supports right to choose

[KartMan 58]

Well that is the paradox then isn’t it? If he is all knowing and KNOWS we are going to choose to sin, then we really don’t have free will do we? We are destined to do exactly what is written for us.

[rodriguezequal 3]

I don't believe in "God" so I can't really answer that, but it's like I KNOW my son will go to school, but I don't know what his actions will be at school...?

[KartMan 58]

The reason I bring it is up is that it seems like the religious like to have it both ways. They would have us believe that God is all knowing, at the same time they tell us that we have free will and that we need to choose to be with God in order for us to get to heaven. My brain just doesn’t work that way, its issues like this that make me the skeptic that I am.

[rodriguezequal 3]

LOL...yeah I hear ya...

[BJean 16]

Kartman that is not the only paradox that Christians are faced with. The answer is always that you just have to have faith. For instance God loves us and forgives us but we have to be "God fearing" people.

The Bible is full of contradictions and when someone says that they take the Bible literally and that they are convinced that the Bible has been "written" by God, I have a problem with it. That is not to say that I have no faith and that I don't read the Bible. It is just that I don't believe that formulating our faith to make it convenient for us to get into heaven is what God intended for us. I don't believe that God can be reponsible for creating all of us and then exclude some of us. I just cannot believe that God is "all powerful" "all loving" and yet he will cut us out if we don't believe in being "born again" or if we are Catholics, or if we are Buddists or Muslims or any other faith.

How can every person on earth (i.e., "everyone is created by God") not be exposed to the idea of being "born again" and destroyed or sent to hell when he returns because they never became "born again." Makes no sense. I believe that the whole evangelical, extremist mantra is single-minded thinking and akin to brainwashing.

Edited June 9, 2009 by BJean

[pattygreen 5]

Well that is the paradox then isn’t it? If he is all knowing and KNOWS we are going to choose to sin, then we really don’t have free will do we? We are destined to do exactly what is written for us.

God is all knowing. He knows your past, your present, your future. He works in your life to show you who he is and to bring you to that point of decision. He said," It is not my will that any should perish." He desires for you to choose him. Although he knows already what the outcome for every life will be, he does not make the choice for you. So, yes, it is your free will to choose him or not.

It all began at the beginning when God created the angels. There is a spiritual warfare going on that our eyes can not see. One of them (Lucifer) 'chose' to rebel against God. God cast him from Heaven to the Earth. He became the Ruler of this planet, and 1/3 of the angels (now known as demons) chose to follow him. When God created mankind and placed them on the earth, and they also disobeyed him, by following Lucifer's lead,(now known as Satan) God gave them their discipline for their disobedience to him. Death. Mankind was created to live eternally here, but once they sinned, God set a number of years onto their life and then they would die physically. During this lifetime God has given us, we are to ponder God and make a decision. Will you choose to follow God or Satan? Who will have your love and allegience? Yes, if you don't choose God, there is only one other choice. Satan. God says in the bible that if you don't follow Him, then you follow the Devil.

[pattygreen 5]

I understand that for an unbeliever this is a hard teaching, but it is the truth. One thing I do know is that one can not entirely understand these spiritual things until they have been born spritually. This is why we christians call it being 'born again'. We once are born physically through our mothers womb, and then when we make the "choice" to believe in God, His Holy Spirit enters into us and lives within us and we are born (again) spiritually. He then will open your eyes to these truths and you will be able to understand the spiritual as well as the physical being. It's quite amazing actually. Many born again christians 'know' this enlightening of the Holy Spirit and have a family connection one to another because of it. This is why when we talk to those who have not believed yet, we understand because we were there once, too.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Why does all of that make me nauseated...?

[KartMan 58]

I understand that for an unbeliever this is a hard teaching, but it is the truth. One thing I do know is that one can not entirely understand these spiritual things until they have been born spritually. This is why we christians call it being 'born again'. We once are born physically through our mothers womb, and then when we make the "choice" to believe in God, His Holy Spirit enters into us and lives within us and we are born (again) spiritually. He then will open your eyes to these truths and you will be able to understand the spiritual as well as the physical being. It's quite amazing actually. Many born again christians 'know' this enlightening of the Holy Spirit and have a family connection one to another because of it. This is why when we talk to those who have not believed yet, we understand because we were there once, too.

Well bless you Patty, you have made me speechless. I don’t even know how to respond to that other than to say it is the biggest bunch of bull I’ve ever heard.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Exactly Kart!

[Alexandra 55]

Pattygreen, I must say I admire your persistence. That's a nice story you spin there about the angels and the demons. And if you look around, you'll find parallels in many other mythologies throughout history. The human condition leads us to invent rules to govern conflicts and want to live forever.

It doesn't make me nauseated, it makes me sad. When I hear that kind of talk I just wonder where the rational person went.

[pattygreen 5]

Well bless you Patty, you have made me speechless. I don’t even know how to respond to that other than to say it is the biggest bunch of bull I’ve ever heard.

Then it has duped billions of people who profess to have had the same spiritual infilling of the Holy Spirit come and live within them. They had this life changing experience and indeed have been changed. (2Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!") That is why I say that all the proof we can give to an unbeliever in Jesus is our own testimony as to the infilling of the Holy Spirit in our own lives. Every born again christian has a story to tell of how once they believed, God did this miracle within them and opened their eyes to the truth. This is why it is a matter of 'faith'.

[Carrie_C 9]

There seems to be a lot of christian bashing on here. I thought we were all supposed to respect each other's belief's (or nonbeliefs), so when did it become acceptable to bash the christian belief? I understand why some of you feel the way you do about christianity because of the way patty talks to people. I don't like her anymore than the rest of you, and I don't like how she judges people and the way she talks to people. But please try to understand, the way patty is is NOT the way true christians act.

[BJean 16]

Yes patty, it is definitely "hard teaching" and a very hard lesson that some of us fail to or refuse to embrace. Do you have the nerve to try to understand why? Or is it enough for you to just write us all off as devil worshippers who are bringing us closer to the second coming? A very few of the reasons that billions of people who do not believe in a person having to be "born again" the way you define it, in order to get into heaven, fall within some of the lines below.

"Born agains" have taught us that they believe that they are above the law because they're doing God's will. They believe that people like Dr. Tiller must be stopped, even if it means murdering him in cold blood in his church.

"Born agains" have taught us that they are the judges and jury here on earth and that they are equipped to do it because they are uniquely qualified by having been "born again" and are simply following the teachings of the Bible and they are doing God's will. Timothy McVeigh was a "born again" who believed he was carrying out God's will.

"Born agains' have taught us that it is the right thing to do to leave a woman to die if she finds that she's experiencing a pregnancy gone wrong, rather than allowing her to have a physically needed late term abortion.

Billions of people do not believe in the "born again" version of religion because billions have never even heard the term. How unjust are your "born again" teachings if they would allow billions of people to go to hell just because they have not heard of it or been given the chance to choose be "born again"? And what of all those people who were born and died before the concept of being "born again" the way you teach it, was even thought up?

And what about all the other denominations of Christians? "Born agains" have decided that because other Christians don't require or believe in the "born again" philosophy, even though they believe in God and the Bible and lead Christian lives, those Christians are going to hell because they haven't been "born again"? AND they are devil worshippers?

Can you possibly understand that the exclusionary teachings of the "born agains" are similar to some of the teachings of the Muslim terrorists who fight against us? And if you can understand that, can you understand why perfectly intelligent, well-educated, sane, rational people do not believe that being "born again" is the unique qualification that God has put forth that allows a person to enter into his kingdom or that it makes any more sense than what Allah has promised certain extremist Muslims?

As for me, I can't believe in a religion that teaches that really good people are going to hell because they havent been "born again" the way you teach it. And I can't believe that some really bad people aren't going to hell, just because they claim to be "born again."

I challenge you to open your heart to other beliefs and philosophies instead of being so anti-people. Because it seems obvious that what you're teaching is difficult to grasp unless you are a fully brainwashed sheep, drinking the kool-aid.

Edited June 10, 2009 by BJean

[BJean 16]

Carrie: "There seems to be a lot of christian bashing on here. I thought we were all supposed to respect each other's belief's (or nonbeliefs), so when did it become acceptable to bash the christian belief? I understand why some of you feel the way you do about christianity because of the way patty talks to people. I don't like her anymore than the rest of you, and I don't like how she judges people and the way she talks to people. But please try to understand, the way patty is is NOT the way true christians act."

Carrie I totally agree with that.