who supports right to choose

[pattygreen 5]

Just because you are taught what is right doesn't mean that you will do the right thing. All parents will be responsible to God for what they teach and don't teach their children. The important thing is that as a parent, you DO teach them what God has to say about things. After that, it is up to each individual to make the choice on whether to follow what they are taught or not. So in your mind, you feel that since christian kids grow up and don't always do what their taught, why bother?

[pattygreen 5]

God expressed His disgust for the Ammonites, who "ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead"(Amos 1:13)

The Bible tells us God is involved in our creation from the womb:

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (

Job 31:15

)

Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (

Psalm 22:9-10

)

For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (

Psalm 139:13-16

)

Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, `Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (

Isaiah 44:2

)

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone, (

Isaiah 44:24

)

In addition, there are a number of great men of God (and Jesus) who were called to be God's servants from the womb:

Samson:

• Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, "A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. "But he said to me, `Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'" (Judges 13:6-7, see also Judges 16:17)
  

Jesus (prophecy):

• Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. (Isaiah 49:1)
  
• And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), (Isaiah 49:5)
  
• Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalm 22:9-10)
  

Jeremiah:

• "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)
  

John the Baptist:

• "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)
  

Paul:

• But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased (Galatians 1:15) All of the above verses tell us God considers us to be human before we are born, but they don't answer the question of when we actually become so. I propose there is a way to know what God considers the latest point in development at which we must consider a fetus to be a living human. Even before God gave Moses the law, when He gave Noah and his family all the animals for food (in addition to the plants), He told them, "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood" (Genesis 9:4). At the same time, God gave the law and penalty for murder (described as the shedding of "man's blood"). Therefore, God considers blood to be the basis for life and the shedding of human blood, which results in death, to be murder. Science tells us that the heart of the human fetus begins to form 18 days after conception. There is a measurable heart beat 21-24 days after conception.Since blood is flowing at this point, it is likely that blood formation begins well before day 21 (I could find no reference for the date at which blood formation begins). Therefore, this represents the latest date at which we must consider the fetus to be human (according to biblical standards), which is only 7-10 days after a women would expect to begin her menses. Most women have cycles that can vary by this amount, and therefore do not discover they are pregnant until after this point. For all practical purposes, from a biblical perspective, abortion at any point must be considered murder by Bible-believing Christian.
  

Edited June 2, 2009 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

God has a plan for every egg that is fertilized, every human being that has formed. When a woman aborts a baby, she aborts God's plans for it, and snuffs out what God has desired. If God values the life in the womb, who are we to NOT value it?In Exodus 21:22, the law tells us that a man who induces an abortion is to be punished, indicating that God values life before birth. Therefore, we should also.

Edited June 2, 2009 by pattygreen

[Lydiafree 0]

Brace yourselves. I'm not sure where she's been, traveling probably. But as soon as gadget reads what's been going on here, she will come back at us with a number of links and quotes that will knock your socks off. We will hardly have the opportunity to counter her comments because she'll beat us all into submission with such a volume of material we will feel beaten down - or at least she will try, if past history is any indication.

It matters little what any one person thinks. Abortion is not compulsory, anyone who doesn't like them doesn't have to have one. That is the end of their involvement in the matter.

Someday, when they grow up and stop believing that the world must obey their personal whims, they'll understand that.

[Lydiafree 0]

He said he knows this because he used to be an integral part of it. He knows what they used to say in public and also what they said in private. And what they said in private was so extreme, so full of venom, that they knew they were pushing people to commit atrocities.

To quote Voltaire: Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.

[pattygreen 5]

It matters little what any one person thinks. Abortion is not compulsory, anyone who doesn't like them doesn't have to have one. That is the end of their involvement in the matter.

Someday, when they grow up and stop believing that the world must obey their personal whims, they'll understand that.

It may matter little what one person thinks, but it matters much what God thinks.

It also matters to the person whose life was snuffed out. Oh yeah, they don't matter.:frown:

No one needs to obey anyones personal whims, we all have to make our own choices in life. If you want to drive your car over a cliff, go ahead, just make sure there are no passengers in the car with you.

[pattygreen 5]

To quote Voltaire: Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.

He was right. It's absurd to believe you have a right to do as you please with an unborn baby that you carry inside you. And because you believe that, you commit the atrocity of murder!

[Lydiafree 0]

4/20/2005

An organ is something TOTALLY different than a human being.

Thank you for proving my point. Faux-lifers don't practice what they preach. They simply want to "punish the sluts".

The point is, the person will die without your kidney. You are compelled to give it up, if you honestly believe people (or, more specifically, women) do not have the right to refuse the use of their bodies to others.

"Oh really? I think you have that wrong. We're not anti anything that reduces the abortion rate. We're ALL FOR anything that will reduce the abortion rate! I'm not against sex ed. Just against anyone but the parents teaching it to their own children. I'm also not against birth control. Only the kind that destroys the fetus immediately after conception."

So you're not against sex ed, you're against qualified, informed people teaching sex ed. And you're not against birth control, just the kinds that you don't like.

So, you're against abortion, you just don't want anything done to prevent it that makes you personally uncomfortable.

Luckily, fauz-lifers are not the rules of the country. What convoluted logic this is.

Oh really? If it's not about protecting babies, then what's it about? Get real."

That's what you tell yourselves to give justification for your proto-fascist misogyny. Pro-lifer bigotry is of no relevance to reality. Women matter. Their safety, their health and their well-being matter. Regardless of what exists in their uterus.

[Lydiafree 0]

It may matter little what one person thinks, but it matters much what God thinks.

It also matters to the person whose life was snuffed out. Oh yeah, they don't matter.:frown:

.

Of course a fetus matters - it's potential human life. It does not, however, trump the mother. No matter how often you ignore this basic fact.

If you want to believe that God, that's wonderful. However, understand that your belief in god has absolutely nothing to do with the debate at hand.

[Lydiafree 0]

He was right. It's absurd to believe you have a right to do as you please with an unborn baby that you carry inside you. And because you believe that, you commit the atrocity of murder!

So, you believe that it's absurd for a woman to believe she has the right to control her own body.

So, cough up that kidney, Patty.

[Lydiafree 0]

And where in your bible does your god tell you that abortion is wrong? I presented you with scripture and quotes that contradict that...so what now?

This is the part where fingers get jammed into the ears and "nah nah nah can't hear you" fills the air.

[Lydiafree 0]

By the way, I read a story today about a study that was done recently that stated that girls who attend religious schools were more likely to have an abortion than girls attending public schools. I will try to find the link.

Linkie: Religious devotion does not impact abortion decisions of young unwed women

Interesting bit:

"Religious school attendance is not necessarily indicative of conservative religious beliefs because students attend these schools for a variety of reasons," Adamczyk said. "These schools tend to generate high levels of commitment and strong social ties among their students and families, so abortion rates could be higher due to the potential for increased feelings of shame related to an extramarital birth."

Interesting possibility.

[BJean 16]

battygreen: "If only there weren't those extreme christians who desire to eliminate all of the 'goodness'(sinfulness)in the world, we would all get along just fine." By your 'goodness', I speak of abortions which doesn't kill babies, but in fact gives women a 'right' to their own bodies, gay marriages because it's not a sin to have sex with the same sex, their just people in love, and prostitution as a legal profession because anyone should be able to 'choose' what they want to do.(sarcasm added).They will say that we "HATE"...

Do not presume that I am not a Christian. Do not presume that you have the the sole proper interpretation of the Bible. And do not misquote me.

At least do not do that if you want to be taken seriously by others.

You have insinuated that I wrote these words:

"If only there weren't those extreme christians who desire to eliminate all of the 'goodness'(sinfulness)in the world, we would all get along just fine."

and I did not. You also insinuated that I used the word "hate" and I did not use the word "hate" or "hateful" in the context that your post did.

You are exactly the kind of person who is so extreme, so intolerant, so quick to toss out the words God and the Bible, that you are the type of person who does inspire wackos to do your bidding. And you know it. And I do not doubt that you are among those who applaud the death of Dr. Tiller because you consider him a mass murderer.

You don't get by with the cop out that this is indicative of the second coming. You don't get to blame everybody else for the distain they have for your words. You have no excuse. You are being irresponsible, ugly, judgemental, intolerant and self-serving. You hide behind the Bible and refuse to take responsiblity for your tirades.

It is never you who calls someone a murderer, it's God. It's never you who spews hate, it's God. God hates. God hates the sin. God hates, hates, hates. But you don't. You only tell us that God does. YOU are the kind of person who will bring on the second coming. YOU are the kind of person who Jesus spoke to about love and forgiveness, no matter what the sin. YOU are not fooling anyone. It is YOU who is spewing the hate and inciting people to feel they are holier than everyone else and that they are merely God's instrument when they kill someone they disagree with.

People like you are feeding a malignant cancer in this country. And by God, if you and your ilk don't straighten up, learn to respect others, learn to tolerate different beliefs, learn how to love people, learn how to help people, in spite of the fact that they smoke or drink or commit other heinous sins that YOU HATE, then we're all definitely in for a lot more killing and grief.

Please, please, please, for the love of God look inward for a change. Stop telling everyone else how wrong they are. Take responsibility for your hate. Stop blaming God for your own personal feelings. Understand and take responsibility for how your words affect people.

No one is knocking Christianity here. No one is knocking the Bible or God or Jesus or Christians. People are criticizing the ones who are talking the talk that says that they are the only ones who know what is right and wrong. People are being criticized for intolerance and dislike of their fellow countrymen, not God! People are being criticized for using low-down tactics to make their case. You are and people like you are the ones who are using God and who are likely to bring on the second coming; not everybody else in the world who are trying to love and get along. It hangs on the shoulders of those who believe that murdering a murderer is fine as long as they get to choose who gets murdered.

And if I haven't been perfectly clear: no one is blaming God or the Bible or Christianity for the ills of the world; they are blaming the people who are out to harm others with their words and their deeds.

[BJean 16]

Lydia: I believe this bears repeating:

"To quote Voltaire: Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."

I appreciate your posts, btw. Some fresh insight to this thread that is much needed, thanks!

[pattygreen 5]

Of course a fetus matters - it's potential human life. It does not, however, trump the mother. No matter how often you ignore this basic fact.

You are right. If the mother's life were to be in danger of being killed if she carried the baby, then her life would trump the babies. That's what's called self defense. Otherwise, no.