who supports right to choose

[pattygreen 5]

There is no proof that God does not approve of abortions! Wow....just a flood of supporters and not one can speak up for their beliefs...I find that hard to believe. So you all can protest outside of Planed Parenthoods, but you can't post on an internet thread...you can vote against it and trash people that have it done, but you can't stand up?

Not everyone, myself included, would go so far as to protest outside planned parenthood. And some people don't like controversy, and some people don't want to speak up for other reasons. That's their business. And, who says that people who don't post here and just read the forum trashes people who have had abortions? That's pretty presumptuous of you, isn't it?

BTW, I am not trashing anyone who has had an abortion either. I know that people in this world, myself included, don't always do the right thing. I believe in forgiveness. (I know you may feel that those who have had abortions may not feel they did anything in need of forgiveness, and if you don't, then that's fine. It's what you believe. But I believe it is wrong to end a life at any stage of development, and therefore believe it is a sin to have an abortion, and thus in need of forgiveness from God.)

[pattygreen 5]

For the proud shall be humbled, but the humble shall be honored." (TLB, Luke 18:9-14)

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (NIV, Matthew 7:1-2)

As Christians, we need to remember that we are all sinners in God's eyes (Romans 3:23), and that God loves all His children, even those who believe differently than we do (Matthew 5:43-48). We cannot afford to let our strong feelings on abortion issues blind us to Jesus' commandment to "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:36-39). (Quoted from What does the Bible say about abortion?)

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived

me." --Psalm 51:5

(How can you be innocent with sin?)

What Does the Bible Say About Abortion? Nothing - Associated Content

The pro-life position is really a pro-fetus position, and the pro-choice position is really pro-woman. Those who take the pro-fetus position define the woman in relation to the fetus. They assert the rights of the fetus over the right of the woman to be a moral agent or decision maker with respect to her life, health, and family security. (quoted from: RCRC - Protestant)

What are your reasons for posting these svriptures? Because I understand that EVERYONE is a sinner. I'm not saying that I'm not a sinner, because I sin every day of my life, and will admit that to anyone. So, I don't get where you are going?

[rodriguezequal 3]

It said that he was a sinner at conception so when you say do not kill the innocent who would you be talking about...there are no innocents according to that passage. I am posting those scriptures because they contradict some of the things you have writen...some of the things that you preach to be the word of God

[rodriguezequal 3]

Not everyone, myself included, would go so far as to protest outside planned parenthood. And some people don't like controversy, and some people don't want to speak up for other reasons. That's their business. And, who says that people who don't post here and just read the forum trashes people who have had abortions? That's pretty presumptuous of you, isn't it?

BTW, I am not trashing anyone who has had an abortion either. I know that people in this world, myself included, don't always do the right thing. I believe in forgiveness. (I know you may feel that those who have had abortions may not feel they did anything in need of forgiveness, and if you don't, then that's fine. It's what you believe. But I believe it is wrong to end a life at any stage of development, and therefore believe it is a sin to have an abortion, and thus in need of forgiveness from God.)

Okay I guess in my world calling someone a murderer is trashing them...? Just my opinion though!

[pattygreen 5]

It said that he was a sinner at conception so when you say do not kill the innocent who would you be talking about...there are no innocents according to that passage. I am posting those scriptures because they contradict some of the things you have writen...some of the things that you preach to be the word of God

ALL humans are born sinners. That's what that means. When I say a baby is innocent, I mean he didn't do anything deserving of death. He's innocent of any crime. Not that he will never be a sinner in his life. We're all sinners. That's like a person who gets convicted of a crime and gets the death penalty. He's deserving of death. He did something wrong. (he's also a sinner) But a baby (even though he is born a sinner also) didn't do anything wrong , yet he gets killed.

[pattygreen 5]

Okay I guess in my world calling someone a murderer is trashing them...? Just my opinion though!

What else would you like me to call someone who kills someone else? We could make up another word for that if you like, but why?

After thinking about it, I believe a "murderer" is someone who had an evil intent to get rid of another persons life. I think that 'most' pregnant women are not guilty of evil intent. I think they just don't contemplate that another human beings life is ending when they make that decision to abort. They are probably thinking about what they will endure if they continue with the pregnancy and don't think about the baby, because the baby isn't in the eyes view. So, they may not have the "intent" to murder, but that's what the end result of their decision was. A dead person.

[BJean 16]

You've made some excellent points rodriguez. How can an unborn baby be innocent and yet a sinner? It is one of the puzzlements of certain religious orders who believe that a baby who hasn't been christened is destined for hell because the act of christening washes away the sin they are born with. They don't use those words to explain it, of course.

[BJean 16]

patty: "ALL humans are born sinners. That's what that means. When I say a baby is innocent, I mean he didn't do anything deserving of death. He's innocent of any crime. Not that he will never be a sinner in his life. We're all sinners. That's like a person who gets convicted of a crime and gets the death penalty. He's deserving of death. He did something wrong. (he's also a sinner) But a baby (even though he is born a sinner also) didn't do anything wrong , yet he gets killed."

Logically that makes no sense. How can a clump of fetal matter commit sin?

patty: "After thinking about it, I believe a "murderer" is someone who had an evil intent to get rid of another persons life. I think that 'most' pregnant women are not guilty of evil intent. I think they just don't contemplate that another human beings life is ending when they make that decision to abort. They are probably thinking about what they will endure if they continue with the pregnancy and don't think about the baby, because the baby isn't in the eyes view. So, they may not have the "intent" to murder, but that's what the end result of their decision was. A dead person."

In many cases, the baby is exactly what the woman is thinking about when she makes her decisions. Yes, she must consider the impact it will have on her life if she chooses to have a child, but most women are also thinking about what the consequences will be for a child that may possibly be handicapped or malformed in some way, or even just because of the dim future it is promised because it is so unwanted. The end result of an early abortion isn't the "murder" of a person, it is the termination of a possibly developing fertilized egg. I emphasize possibly because there are no guarantees with any pregnancy.

If you believe that taking another's life is murder, then don't you believe that those persons in the government who are charged with pulling the switch on a convicted killer, should be called murderers? When we condemn a person to death we do it as retribution for a person's crime. But we are not always absolutely certain that a mistake wasn't made in the process of his conviction. Yet even though those mistakes are made, our government still continues to put people to death. How can you approve of that process - when the convicted person could be innocent - and disapprove of the abortion process where you say that the baby is innocent?

[BJean 16]

Here's a API release today on this very topic:

WICHITA, Kan. – A man suspected of fatally shooting abortion doctor George Tiller in church was in jail Monday while investigators sought to learn more about his background, including his possible connections to anti-abortion groups.

Tiller, 67, was serving as an usher during morning services Sunday when he was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, police said. The gunman fired one shot at Tiller and threatened two other people who tried to stop him.

The suspect, identified by one law enforcement agency as Scott Roeder, was taken into custody some 170 miles away in a Kansas City suburb about three hours after the shooting.

Tiller had been a lightning rod for abortion opponents for decades. The women's clinic he ran is one of three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy, when the fetus is considered viable, and has been the site of repeated protests for about two decades.

A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985.

Roeder, 51, was returned to Wichita and was being held without bail on one count of first-degree murder and two counts of aggravated assault. Formal charges were expected to be filed Monday.

Outside the clinic Monday morning, flowers were placed along a fence, and the anti-abortion group Kansas Coalition for Life left a sign saying members had prayed for Tiller's change of heart, "not his murder."

In Washington, the U.S. Marshals Service said that as a result of Tiller's shooting, Attorney General Eric Holder had ordered it to "increase security for a number of individuals and facilities." It gave no details.

Tiller himself last had protection from the U.S. Marshals in 2001, and he and other doctors received such protection at different times in the 1990s.

A man with the same name as the suspect has a criminal record and a background of anti-abortion postings on sympathetic Web sites. In one post written in 2007 on the Web site for the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, a man identifying himself as Scott Roeder asked if anyone had thought of attending Tiller's church to ask the doctor and other worshippers about his work. "Doesn't seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller," the post said.

But police said Sunday that all early indications showed the shooter acted alone.

Operation Rescue condemned the killing as vigilantism and "a cowardly act," and the group's president, Troy Newman, said Roeder "has never been a member, contributor or volunteer." He may have posted to the organization's open Internet blog, Newman said, but so have thousands of nonmembers.

But Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry, whose protests have often targeted Tiller, called the slain doctor "a mass murderer," adding: "He was an evil man — his hands were covered with blood."

In 1996, a 38-year-old man named Scott Roeder was charged in Topeka with criminal use of explosives for having bomb components in his car trunk and sentenced to 24 months of probation. However, his conviction was overturned on appeal the next year after a higher court said evidence against Roeder was seized by law enforcement officers during an illegal search of his car.

At the time, police said the FBI had identified Roeder as a member of the anti-government Freemen group, an organization that kept the FBI at bay in Jordan, Mont., for almost three months in 1995-96. Authorities on Sunday night would not immediately confirm if their suspect was the same man.

Morris Wilson, a commander of the Kansas Unorganized Citizens Militia in the mid-1990s, told The Kansas City Star he knew Roeder fairly well.

"I'd say he's a good ol' boy, except he was just so fanatic about abortion," Wilson said. "He was always talking about how awful abortion was. But there's a lot of people who think abortion is awful."

The slaying quickly brought condemnation from both anti-abortion and pro-choice groups, as well as President Barack Obama.

"However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence," Obama said in a statement.

Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said that Tiller apparently did not have a bodyguard with him in church, although the doctor was routinely accompanied by one. An attorney for Tiller, Dan Monnat, said the doctor's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time of the shooting.

Monnat said in early May that Tiller had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy. However, Stolz said authorities knew of no threats connected to the shooting.

Adam Watkins, a 20-year-old who said he has attended the church his entire life, said he was sitting in the middle of the congregation when he heard a small pop at the start of the service.

"We just thought a child had come in with a balloon and it had popped, had gone up and hit the ceiling and popped," Watkins said.

Church members said anti-abortion protesters have shown up outside the church on Sundays regularly.

"They've been out here for quite a few years. We've just become accustomed to it. Just like an everyday thing, you just looked over and see them and say, 'Yup they're back again.'"

The last killing of an abortion doctor was in October 1998 when Dr. Barnett Slepian was fatally shot in his home in a suburb of Buffalo, N.Y. A militant abortion opponent was convicted of the murder.

One of Tiller's lawyers and friends, Dan Monnat, told ABC's "Good Morning America" that Tiller had been supported by his wife and children in his decision to continue providing abortion services.

"If Dr Tiller is not going to service a woman's right to chose, who will do it?" Monnat said.

"Many of those have been terrorized and run off by protesters," he said about other abortion providers.

___ Associated Press writer John Hanna contributed to this report.

What anti-choice people must come to grips with is that no matter how many doctors they kill, or how many potests they make, or how many women they threaten by their very presence, doctors will understand the need for them under certain circumstances and will help those women in need.

The killer in this case certainly deserves to die if anyone ever did - he marched himself into a church and killed a good Christian doctor. But I hope that instead, he is made an example of how many in the anti-choice movement think and what they believe is an acceptible remedy to a law they disagree with. We need to keep these people away from mainstream Americans, separate them from reasonable people, putting them in jails or whatever is needed to keep the public safe.

This man's insane paradoxical thinking is like any assassin's or terrorist's. This man is no better than the men who brought down the World Trade Center, and he calls himself an American and probably calls himself a Christian and hides his hate behind a philosophy of anti-abortion, but he is sadly revealed to be nothing more than a common terrorist/murderer.

Perhaps we really do need to keep Guantanamo prison open and throw the likes of this dude in with the rest of the so-called terrorists.

[rodriguezequal 3]

So if we make abortions illegal then we will also have to do so with the majority of birth controls....that seems like a horrible idea!!!

[Lydiafree 0]

So if we make abortions illegal then we will also have to do so with the majority of birth controls....that seems like a horrible idea!!!

That is their goal, of course. It's no coincidence that a majority of anti-choicers are also conservatives/right-leaning religious/etc. Their anti-sex ed, anti-birth control - anti- everything that actually reduces the abortion rate.

Make no mistake - their desire has nothing to do with protecting babies.

+++

What's that?

I don't know if anyone addressed this (apologies for not doing it myself - i lost track of this thread for a while)

The organ donation thing refers to a hypothetical situation used to try and illustrate to faux-lifers exactly what they're advocating for when they make anti-choice statements/arguments.

Say, you're debating with a faux-lifer and they are taking the position that a woman has an obligation to the fetus she's carrying, that she has no right to remove it under any circumstances (or, as a variation, under only certain circumstances deemed okay by the faux-lifer), that all life is precious, etc. etc.

Basically, the organ donation thing goes something like this:

"I know a man who needs a kidney right now. You (the faux-lifer) are the only person whose organ is suitable. Since people don't have the right to refuse the use of their body to others, give it up."

Personally, I like to make the person needing a kidney a hypothetical 9-year-old child, as faux-lifers routinely prove that their interest in adult life is somewhat less than equal.

The idea being to point out that they themselves will not practice what they preach, i.e. they certainly don't agree to give this person a kidney and will come up with impressively convoluted reasons why they don't have to.

It also serves to air the slut-shaming misogynstic nature of faux-life arguments. Sometimes a faux-lifer will agree that rape and incest victims should be allowed abortions, but not women who just had unprotected sex, or sex with BC that failed. So, it becomes clear that the aim is to punish women for having sex willingly.

The case of Dr. Tiller is a good example because he specialized in late-term abortions. In other words, abortions performed on women who wanted to have a baby but whose pregnancy went wrong somehow, rendering the fetus inviable. He was still referred to as a "baby-killer". Nevermind that what he did literally saved women's lives. Women don't matter.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Well said. I agree that they do not see a living/whole person as they see a developing fetus...hell with our lives...hell with our bodies, our health, or physical and mental well being...you must carry this fetus for "just" 9 months...what if that 9 months kills the woman...who cares if the baby is okay right?!

[Lydiafree 0]

Well said. I agree that they do not see a living/whole person as they see a developing fetus...hell with our lives...hell with our bodies, our health, or physical and mental well being...you must carry this fetus for "just" 9 months...what if that 9 months kills the woman...who cares if the baby is okay right?!

They like to pretend otherwise, but that is the general gist of their position. They want personhood granted to fetuses, but not those annoying, expendable incubators that carry them.

[rodriguezequal 3]

haha yes...exactly!!!

[BJean 16]

Brace yourselves. I'm not sure where she's been, traveling probably. But as soon as gadget reads what's been going on here, she will come back at us with a number of links and quotes that will knock your socks off. We will hardly have the opportunity to counter her comments because she'll beat us all into submission with such a volume of material we will feel beaten down - or at least she will try, if past history is any indication.

Most people who've been involved here get so grossed out by the graphic propaganda she posts, they are unwilling to hang in long enough to keep her from being the only voice here.

I am very proud of those of you who give a voice to the pro-choice, pro-women folks. Just remember, the majority of Americans do support women's right to choose. If they are asked only "do you believe in abortion?" they might say, "no" but when asked if the government should make the decision versus the woman making it, they overwhelmingly support women's rights to make their own choices.

I hope everyone will read the real truth about what President Obama believes regarding this issue and they do not believe the misrepresentations and downright lies that the anti-choice people have put forth about him. If you truly understand what and why he believes what he does, it is very clear and straightforward and it is very hard to argue against. That is, if you believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.