who supports right to choose

[rodriguezequal 3]

lol Thanks Bjean...I know it gets tough sometimes...I was thinking about it and you know that not even the person that Started this thread even talks on here lol. I've been spending a lot of time trying to laugh so I've been spending time on this site that my hubby showed me. He bought this book a while back called The Alphabet of Manliness (Which I thought was hilarious)! lol. After we both read the book I started reading his website...which I don't suggest for people like Patty...he does say some crazy stuff, but I think it's funny! Anyways, if you ever wanted to check it out for a laugh it's: The Best Page In The Universe. It's called the Best Page in the Universe. He posts his hate mail and a bunch of articles about random things like iPhones and Fashion...even movie reviews lol...

[BJean 16]

Hey darlin' thanks for sharing!! I can always use a laugh! And they say laughter is the best medicine. I've always been a proponent of using it even in very trying situations. Like going into or out of surgery. Might as well get everybody in a good mood if they're going to be seeing some of your insides, right? lol

[Carrie_C 9]

I'm still here too, I agree with BJean though, I get tired of it too.

[gadgetlady 4]

Interesting that you admit that "we do not know" yet you have persisted in posting links that claim to know.

All of the links claim to know (not just "mine").

Just a reminder here that what we do not know isn't whether the baby is a human being, but when the baby feels pain. And again, it doesn't matter. The ability to feel pain does not make one a human being.

It is understandable why you back away from the religious aspects of the argument. You can't win your case if it is solely based on religious beliefs.

Uh, no. It's because not everyone believes the same things about religion, and the presence or absence of a soul is inconsequential to the argument of whether it's ok to take another human being's life.

questionable pictoral resources

Pro-lifers don't use doctored pictures. They don't need to. Pictures of pre-born babies are readily available in all sorts of literature, and pictures of aborted babies speak for themselves.

But when pushed against the proverbial wall, even you admit that "we don't know."

I wasn't pushed against any wall; I'm the one that pointed out that we don't know. We don't know when the baby feels pain. What we do know is the baby is a human being.

There are occasions when even you would probably admit, if you were being truthful, that an abortion is the only viable and reasonable action to be taken.

Nope. I don't believe it's ever viable or reasonable to take another person's life without their consent.

It is our scientific research that we are able to interpret, and our emotional and philosophical opinoins that count when we have to make a choice.

Muslims believe it's ok for husbands to beat their wives. It's their interpretation of their religion. Is this a matter of personal choice as well?

Personal choice ends where another person's body begins.

[pattygreen 5]

You have no idea what you would do because you are not in that position. I had friends that were very very pro life and she got pregnant because they weren't being careful and they ran out and got an abortion because they weren't ready for children. You hate all religions, but Christianity? I do not share your beliefs as well as a lot of oter people don't so why should we be forced to follow your "God's" bible as the word we should live by!?

Christianity is not a religion. Religions are organized groups of people with their own set of rules and regulations that usually man has made up, like a doctrine of faith or a catechism or creed of some kind. Some christian churches take on a religious form, and is like that, but I believe that 'real' christianity is an awakening by God's Holy Spirit to the truth of the word of God as the one and only guidebook for mankind to follow, and a relationship with God. When someone becomes what we call 'born again', then they are truly in a relationship with God. Until then, they are just 'playing' church. My definition of Religion is mankind 'working' at trying to be good enough to get to God. And Christianity is man doing nothing and God reaching down to find him. EVERY 'Religion' out there expects their congregants to do something to make it to heaven (like give to charity, be good, live morally, share their faith, go door to door, praying continuously, behave, etc.) Christianity doesn't. It's the only faith out there where nothing is required of you except faith in Jesus to get you there. Many christians, after becoming born again know that their salvation is a gift from God and not through any works they have done, but when they understand the great sacrifice that Jesus made for them, they choose to do what's right in life and in so doing, honor God. But they are not sinless and know it. This is the difference between Religion and Christianity.

[pattygreen 5]

No he said the body feels it around 26 weeks, but the mind doesn't feel it until after birth. You know how bad that thought must make women who have had misscarriages feel...So is the baby in pain when your "God" is aborting it?

When a baby dies as a natural part of life, you have no way of avoiding it. Cars drive on roads, children have been known to walk in the road at times, and sometimes one may even get killed by one of those cars. It happened. No one likes it, but it happened. If the child felt pain, there wasn't anything anyone could do about that. BUT, if the driver of the car 'deliberately' ran over the child and killed him, and the child felt pain because of it. Now people are angry.

God 'allows' life to 'happen' without intervening unless someone else prays for them, and even then, he may not answer someones prayers the way they want, because He knows what's best for all.

[Carrie_C 9]

Just a reminder here that what we do not know isn't whether the baby is a human being, but when the baby feels pain. And again, it doesn't matter. The ability to feel pain does not make one a human being.

I have to agree with you that it doesn't matter. But I am confused, are we arguing weather or not a fetus is human or not? Of course it's human.....

[rodriguezequal 3]

Christianity is not a religion. Religions are organized groups of people with their own set of rules and regulations that usually man has made up, like a doctrine of faith or a catechism or creed of some kind. Some christian churches take on a religious form, and is like that, but I believe that 'real' christianity is an awakening by God's Holy Spirit to the truth of the word of God as the one and only guidebook for mankind to follow, and a relationship with God. When someone becomes what we call 'born again', then they are truly in a relationship with God. Until then, they are just 'playing' church. My definition of Religion is mankind 'working' at trying to be good enough to get to God. And Christianity is man doing nothing and God reaching down to find him. EVERY 'Religion' out there expects their congregants to do something to make it to heaven (like give to charity, be good, live morally, share their faith, go door to door, praying continuously, behave, etc.) Christianity doesn't. It's the only faith out there where nothing is required of you except faith in Jesus to get you there. Many christians, after becoming born again know that their salvation is a gift from God and not through any works they have done, but when they understand the great sacrifice that Jesus made for them, they choose to do what's right in life and in so doing, honor God. But they are not sinless and know it. This is the difference between Religion and Christianity.

Excuse me but that is a whole lot of Bullshit! Come on!!!! That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life!!!!

[rodriguezequal 3]

When a baby dies as a natural part of life, you have no way of avoiding it. Cars drive on roads, children have been known to walk in the road at times, and sometimes one may even get killed by one of those cars. It happened. No one likes it, but it happened. If the child felt pain, there wasn't anything anyone could do about that. BUT, if the driver of the car 'deliberately' ran over the child and killed him, and the child felt pain because of it. Now people are angry.

God 'allows' life to 'happen' without intervening unless someone else prays for them, and even then, he may not answer someones prayers the way they want, because He knows what's best for all.

That's a bunch of crap, people would have been made if it was an accident too! Are you kidding yourself? God is a bunch of crap! There is no such thing as God and if there is he is the cruellest God there is and I don't want an part of him or his religions! Your "God" has embedded my life with suffering! Your "God" must not know what compassion means because he has shown me none!!!

[gadgetlady 4]

I have to agree with you that it doesn't matter. But I am confused, are we arguing weather or not a fetus is human or not? Of course it's human.....

Not everyone agrees. Some say the baby is in the process of becoming a human being. Some say the baby isn't fully human. Some say the baby won't be fully human until he or she is delivered and separated from the mother's body. Some say the baby is a potential human being. A lot of euphemisms are used to disguise the fact that the baby is a living, growing human being, an individual distinct from the mother with separate DNA and circulatory system, on life-support as it were, but still a unique individual.

This really and truly is the crux of the matter, and it was the crux of the matter in 1973 as well. Blackmun said so in the Roe v Wade majority opinion -- If the "suggestion of personhood is established, the [abortion rights] case, of course, collapses, for the fetus' right to life is then guaranteed specifically by the [14th] Amendment."

In 1973 we didn't fully understand what goes on in the womb; a lot of it was still a mystery. Now we do know, and the unborn baby is clearly a person. This is why many states are pushing forward with personhood amendments.

As an aside, I've always been amused by the argument that most pro-lifers are men and they just want to subjugate women. A Rasmussen study released yesterday was the 4th study to confirm that the majority in America has swung to the pro-life side, but what is also interesting is that women are more pro-life than men by a full 13 percentage points (64% to 51%).

[pattygreen 5]

Christianity is not a religion. Religions are organized groups of people with their own set of rules and regulations that usually man has made up, like a doctrine of faith or a catechism or creed of some kind. Some christian churches take on a religious form, and is like that, but I believe that 'real' christianity is an awakening by God's Holy Spirit to the truth of the word of God as the one and only guidebook for mankind to follow, and a relationship with God. When someone becomes what we call 'born again', then they are truly in a relationship with God. Until then, they are just 'playing' church. My definition of Religion is mankind 'working' at trying to be good enough to get to God. And Christianity is man doing nothing and God reaching down to find him. EVERY 'Religion' out there expects their congregants to do something to make it to heaven (like give to charity, be good, live morally, share their faith, go door to door, praying continuously, behave, etc.) Christianity doesn't. It's the only faith out there where nothing is required of you except faith in Jesus to get you there. Many christians, after becoming born again know that their salvation is a gift from God and not through any works they have done, but when they understand the great sacrifice that Jesus made for them, they choose to do what's right in life and in so doing, honor God. But they are not sinless and know it. This is the difference between Religion and Christianity.

Which part or parts of this is the dumbest thing you ever heard?

[pattygreen 5]

That's a bunch of crap, people would have been made if it was an accident too! Are you kidding yourself? God is a bunch of crap! There is no such thing as God and if there is he is the cruellest God there is and I don't want an part of him or his religions! Your "God" has embedded my life with suffering! Your "God" must not know what compassion means because he has shown me none!!!

I would like to clarify something. God doesn't embed anyone with their circumstances. Life happens. He intervenes if believers ask him to. Prayers of unbelievers who don't trust God fall on deaf ears. What would make someone who won't acknowledge that he exists ask him for anything anyway? If a child of God asks him for anything, he will have it, unless God sees that it wouldn't benefit them or it may harm them. Just like a parent/child relationship.

If you believe that God hasn't shown you any compassion, it may be because you have not chosen to make him your Father.

[BJean 16]

gadget: "Personal choice ends where another person's body begins."

Amen and hallelujah to that statement. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Your choice ends where my body begins.

Period. End of story.

According to our laws, you are completely free to choose whatever course of action you deem proper when it comes to your own body. And I to mine. Figuratively putting your hands inside my body to save a being that is growing inside me is absolutely not within your rights and the law says that you may not choose to do that.

Thank God that our President understands the difference here between what you propose and what is the right thing to do here in America.

And I hope you're reading, carefully, all that has been posted regarding Christianity here. You can't be serious when you say that people who are against women's right to choose has nothing at all to do with religion. As patty will tell you, Christianity and religion made this nation and it continues to play a role in how this country is run. I don't like it, but it is obviously true. Most Americans have been endoctrinated at an early age in the Christian religion and Bible teachings.

Without that, then it would easily be considered a scientific issue. But you can't remove the impact that religion plays in this debate just because it makes it a more difficult argument to win.

[BJean 16]

patty, you can't imagine how cruel you are. I know you have no idea. Because you keep saying that you don't hate anyone and that you love everyone. I just will never understand how someone who claims to love everyone can be so frickin' insensitive and cold. You say that you understand God and the Bible, and for sure you can quote scripture, but I think you have a very limited understanding of God's love. You demonstrate your narrow-minded and very limited definition of God's love everyday.

[TheWatcher 1]

ok I have been quiet in the forums for a while now since my last few threads worked their way to completion but i was just noticing the post of my buddy bjean and decided to look at what the fuss was about .... prayers of unbeliever fall on deaf ears pattygreen are you higher that i usually am... what is your problem first of all if a person is a unbeliever y would they be preying second ... if a person who doesn't trust God prays and is not herd how will they ever begin to trust God. I am blown away by how frickin self righteous you are... Remember even Christians weren't always Christians ... i think alot of religious people forget that ..... Get your mind right and remember that we worship and God of love, forgiveness, and hope ... Where do you get off riding your high horse looking down your nose at people who are still weak in their walk. I mean really?!?!? a parent never wants harm to come to a child but sometime it happens and its not because the parent didn't do everything in their power to stop the child from getting hurt in the process. it kills God to see any one suffering but because he gave us free will it is sometimes unavoidable no matter how much he tries to correct out path. If all Christians believed as you do then where would the hope be.

Edited May 21, 2009 by TheWatcher