who supports right to choose

[Carrie_C 9]

This is getting too funny!

[gadgetlady 4]

I disagree with the premise that good sex education necessarily encourges or promotes sexual activity.

Good sex education doesn't. Crap like that website I posted, IMO, does.

I wasn't thrilled with the kind of educational exposure my daugher got regarding how chickens and hogs and cows are slaughtered and prepared for the marketplace because it caused her to become a vegan. Becoming a vegan has put her at risk for many things, including difficulty in having children and being able to handle surgery very well and even getting injections. But I am glad that she has the information and can make her own informed and intelligent life decisions about it.

As for gun training courses and all the rest, we are in so many ways an impractical society. I would be all for gun training if every child got it. I do not believe that it would increase gun deaths. I believe it would reduce them.

We had vocational education courses for years that taught hair coloring, auto repair, drafting, plumbing methods, etc. It was a good thing. Not all children are mentally equipped to become rocket scientists. Besides, we need hairdressers, plumbers, auto repair people and the like.

As for torture, you can't be serious. As a country, we do not believe in torture. We have signed a pact saying that we do not torture. Why would we teach children how to Water board or place bamboo under the fingernails to make our captives scream? We know that torture doesn't work to get good information any better than less drastic methods. People mostly torture to inflict pain. It makes the torturer feel in control. And sometimes it actually gives them pleasure. It is frightful.

(And this is your fault - you unleashed the hounds on that one.)

I'm not quite sure what you mean about something being my fault -- I don't know what of the above is a "faulty" discussion.

In any case, where I've been trying to go with all of this is the issue of content. The presence of sex ed isn't something I've ever disagreed with. The question is how far do you go? What is the job of the schools and what is the job of the parents? Is teaching sexual techniques the job of the schools? Is discussing how to have multiple orgasms the job of the schools? What about sexual positions? etc. etc. etc. Yes, these are pushing the envelope, but the entire question is content, and I have a problem when the content encourages or validates behaviors that aren't in my value system. Teaching about biology and sexual function doesn't affect values; it's simply factual. There is nothing wrong with facts.

[gadgetlady 4]

This is getting too funny!

I agree. What's particularly funny is that I'm being painted as someone who's against sex ed, when all along I've said I believe students should be taught about basic factual information. Anyway, I expect I will continue to be painted as an intolerant narrow-minded religious conservative bigot who believes sex is dirty and no one should do it - so be it. It's to be expected, anyway.

[BJean 16]

It's your fault that I ranted about torture. You brought it up. :crying:

You're saying that you don't have any problem with sex education in public schools. I misunderstood. I thought that you said that parents should be the ones who teach their children about sex.

If you are in support of sex ed in schools, don't you believe that there can be a panel or panels of experts, with parental input, and education representatives, that would be able to come up with a realistic and beneficial cirriculum that would be acceptable to you?

I believe that President Obama would support such a discussion and would listen to all sides of the issue. That is what president Bush did not do. If Obama decides that teaching abstinence-only in schools is the best route to our seeing a reduction in teen pregnancies and other sex related problems, then I am sure he would reconsider his stance on the issue. And for your information, he has said that he will listen to the abstinence-only proponents.

[BJean 16]

gadget sez: "I agree. What's particularly funny is that I'm being painted as someone who's against sex ed, when all along I've said I believe students should be taught about basic factual information. Anyway, I expect I will continue to be painted as an intolerant narrow-minded religious conservative bigot who believes sex is dirty and no one should do it - so be it. It's to be expected, anyway."

BJean sez: Watch it gadget, your ass is showing.

[pattygreen 5]

School should be for academics ONLY. If it were, maybe more parents would do their job and teach their kids about sex and cooking and auto repair and so on. If they knew they wouldn't be getting anything but math, english, science and social studies there, then they wouldn't ignore their job at home. And if they did anyway, then when their kids grew up and didn't know how to cook for themselves, they'd have to go out and eat, and if they didn't know how to repair a car then they'd have to take it to a garage, and if they didn't know how to put on a condom, they'd use trial and error. So what! That's the whole reason why I homeschool my kids. The public school has infiltrated academic education with all kinds of crap that's not in their place to provide. Heck, our public high school had a fortuneteller and a hypnotist entertain them one year. I'm so against that stuff in schools.

[BJean 16]

Gadget: "So in the years from the 1960's or the 1970's to when the horrible, evil Bush was in office (when sex ed in schools still happened, BTW), when students were being taught all about everything they need to know, why have teen pregnancy and STD rates skyrocketed? What wasn't being taught? What more do you want kids to know? I personally was taught everything I needed to know, and if I had questions I went to my school nurse."

What public school did you attend that provided a comprehensive sex ed course? You're actually the only person I've ever spoken with who made a claim like that. Bully for your school district. It was not the norm though, sorry to say.

[gadgetlady 4]

gadget sez: "I agree. What's particularly funny is that I'm being painted as someone who's against sex ed, when all along I've said I believe students should be taught about basic factual information. Anyway, I expect I will continue to be painted as an intolerant narrow-minded religious conservative bigot who believes sex is dirty and no one should do it - so be it. It's to be expected, anyway."

BJean sez: Watch it gadget, your ass is showing.

:crying: No idea at all what that means.

[gadgetlady 4]

You're saying that you don't have any problem with sex education in public schools. I misunderstood.

Then you didn't read, because I said it over and over and over and over again.

[rodriguezequal 3]

I think that Sex ed doesn't talk about what could go wrong during a pregnancy...maybe if they knew more about what could go wrong...what could go wrong with the baby and/or with them..maybe they would think twice about wanting to get pregnant at a young age, without birth control, or financial support...

[BJean 16]

gadget: "My objection is to subjects and/or methods that encourage sexual activity.

"That being said, presumably there are a lot of topics that are educational but many would say are either out-of-line or not the appropriate venue for schools.

"Would you agree that schools should be required to give gun training courses? After all, it's educational, and suppose they don't learn this information at home? Where are they going to get the correct information?

"What about requiring schools to give information about hair coloring? Or torture methods? Or embalming processes? Or plumbing repair?

"Yes, I am deliberately being random with the above examples. The point is, there is potentially an educational aspect to everything we discuss in life. Yet there are also both proper and improper venues for which these topics should be discussed and for which they should be required."

BJean: Sorry gadget if I thought you might be a little disengenous about your claim of supporting comprehensive sex education classes in public schools. I probably was reading way too much between the lines in your posts. It was not my intention to make you look any different than you really are.

Referring to a different post, gadget said: " No idea at all what that means. "

BJean: Oh sorry, I'll explain. You consistently put your own characterization on my posts. You even go so far as to claim that I said something that in fact, I did not say. And that has been true in several instances during this line of discussion. So, frankly it made me think of someone who is, well, showing their ass to people. (As opposed to their good side.) If I did the same thing to you, then I guess I've bared mine ass well.

[BJean 16]

Very good point rodriguez! In fact, it wasn't until I was preggers with my dd that I read up on and became informed about all the things that could go wrong. Both environmentally and genetically.

Also, I never learned until after I was married that women have all the eggs that they're ever going to have and that a lot of our own behavior can cause problems with producing a healthy egg. Like using drugs and alcohol.

I never knew what all the side effects could be from birth control pills or those heavy duty Patches or IUDs. These are all things that would help women when they consider whether to have sex and whether to have children. And some of those decisions come when girls are teenagers.

Another aside, just to clarify: not using a condom is not the same risk factor as not using a condom properly. And not using a condom is not figured into the stats for the percentage of condom failure. If a condom didn't enter the picture, how could it fail?

Edited May 13, 2009 by BJean

[rodriguezequal 3]

My heart hurts...

What is so bad about teaching both boys and girls about birth control options? or How to use condoms or dental damns...? Knowledge is power...right?

[BJean 16]

Sorry about your head rodriguez. You're young. Maybe when you're my age, you'll get like me and flat out enjoy this kind of discussion instead of finding it painful. I used to hate debate of this kind. I've seen too many injustices and witnessed too much intolerance.

And I've seen ignorance cause so much trouble in the world. So, like you, I'm a big proponent of education and knowledge. Fear of the unknown causes a lot of grief for people.

If a person is smart and well-educated, they can read a book and put it in the proper context. If people are uninformed and ignorant, they may not be able to figure it out and might take the book at face value only. That's why people at one time, hopefully in the past, had book burnings. And why some people can't look at a painting and understand why the artist may have chosen to paint something that they find objectionable.

An in your one sentence you said it better, knowledge is power.

[rodriguezequal 3]

It's not my head...it's my heart...and it's not the conversation...it's life...it sucks