who supports right to choose

[rodriguezequal 3]

I meant in practice everywhere. Yeah cause in the middle of getting excited and erect the gey's going to say "hang on baby...I need to read the direction". I think it is irresponsible to tell kids to look on the internet...our their friends. When I went to school in elementary school they seperated the girls and boys to discuss puberty (not sex)...the boys and girls watched different movies and discussed their own puberty.

[Carrie_C 9]

I meant in practice everywhere. Yeah cause in the middle of getting excited and erect the gey's going to say "hang on baby...I need to read the direction". I think it is irresponsible to tell kids to look on the internet...our their friends. When I went to school in elementary school they seperated the girls and boys to discuss puberty (not sex)...the boys and girls watched different movies and discussed their own puberty.

I totally agree with you! How many teenage boys do we know who are going to go up and ask their mom or dad how to put on a condom?! And you can't trust them to get accurate information from the internet or from their friends! Even if they read the directions, it is still better if they have 'hands on' experience instead of just reading how to do it. We also were seperated at school in forth grade I think and the school nurse talked to us about puberty. We didn't get any sex ed either. Before I started my period, my mother told me that I was never to let a boy touch me and that I wasn't to get pregnant! That's about it. When I was 17 I went to planned parenthood and got birth control because her motto was no sex. I always felt like that was my decision to make, not hers, and I always knew when I got ready, I would do it, but I also knew how to protect myself. I used to read YM magazine all the time and I swear that's how I learned about birth control and everything!

[Carrie_C 9]

Oh yea, Bush also stopped all funding for any type of organization that gave information to patients about abortions. So a lot of women went without health care and birth control just because of that. The organizations didn't even have to preform abortions, even if they only gave information about them, they were cut off.

[rodriguezequal 3]

I know right?! Sometimes it is more comfotable to have that explained to you from a teacher then your parent!

[Carrie_C 9]

I just got a really funny thought in my head. I have a 13 year old brother and I can just see him going up to my mom and asking her how to put on a condom! She would flip! He would be locked in his room forever!!

[BJean 16]

gadget: "I was responding to a post of BJean's where she was complaining about abstinence funding under Bush, that it doesn't work, and that he somehow blindsided the American public by funding something that no one agrees with and is a waste of money. I thought you were agreeing with her about it? Maybe not. Anyway, I was just correcting the perception that it doesn't work, because statistically it does have an impact."

What? "Blindsided" (interesting characterization)..." by funding something that no one agrees with and is a waste of money."

I most certainly did not say that no one agrees with it. I didn't say that it is a waste of money. I said that it has been proven not to be an effective way to curb teen pregnancy. I didn't make up the stats. It may work for some kids, but it does not work for most of them. This has been proven time and again and one doesn't even have to cite statistics to know that.

You're the one who keeps bellowing about an increase in abortion.

I'd like to know exactly why you're characterizing sex education the way you are right in the middle of this discussion about ideas of how to set up sex education so that it works and covers all the bases. No one has said that we have properly conducted or perfected the curriculum for sex education classes. And how could we expect that to happen when we've had a president who has been supporting abstinence-only classes for our children? Do you really think that has made a major impact on teen pregnancies? You say that it has had an impact. Well we need a darn sight more than an impact. We need a complete 180 degrees on this.

Why are people like you so opposed to kids knowing all about their anatomy and physiology, including their sexual organs? Because you think it's dirty or that kids will make jokes about it? Man, if you had a son and expected him to go online to find out about how to use condoms, you're living with blinders on. You know what is online. You know parents can't just turn their kids loose to look up anything of a sexual nature because they'll get way, way, way, more than they or you bargained for.

Beth: "You and I have different values -- and that's fine. I want the ability to monitor what my kids are taught, making sure they are from my perspective and reflect my values. That's my prerogative as a parent."

You are making a big mistake here. There is absolutely no reason whatever that parents cannot have a say in how sex education is taught in schools and who teaches it. Obviously you monitor your kids - they're home schooled. As for the millions of us who have used the public school system, we know that we can have a hands-on approach to our children's education. The Superintendent and the Principal and the teachers do a job for the country that is not taken lightly. It is a huge responsibility. But the biggest responsibility is for us, as parents, to get involved in our children's education.

Public schools need proper sex education including the use of condoms. I don't know how you can possibly see it any other way. The rate of teen pregnancies, abortions, STDs, all point to it being a problem that is way out of control. And they've had the lecture on abstinence. Yeah right it works. In your dreams.

[gadgetlady 4]

Yeah cause in the middle of getting excited and erect the gey's going to say "hang on baby...I need to read the direction". I think it is irresponsible to tell kids to look on the internet...our their friends. When I went to school in elementary school they seperated the girls and boys to discuss puberty (not sex)...the boys and girls watched different movies and discussed their own puberty.

I don't want my children taught how to put a condom on. If you want yours taught that, then teach it to them. I think when a young man goes out and buys condoms, he's going to look at the box and read the directions. Plus, it's not rocket science.

It's not a question of whether the information might be worthwhile to some kids. It's a question of who decides whether and how to provide that information. It's a question of whether it's the government's job to provide condom instructions. And I believe it should be the parents' decision. Which is one of the reasons we homeschool.

[gadgetlady 4]

I know right?! Sometimes it is more comfotable to have that explained to you from a teacher then your parent!

I told my kids early on that I'm their source of information, and if they hear something from the kids at an activity they attend, who's more likely to have the facts -- the kids or their mom? So my kids are 100% comfortable asking me anything. And they do. In fact, they're 100% comfortable asking my husband anything, too, even if he confesses to me later that he feels a bit awkward when they're talking openly about their periods or their breasts or birth control or whatever. He doesn't show his discomfort in front of them.

Anyway, I find it sad that kids would feel more comfortable talking to a stranger than their parents. I'm not naive enough to believe everyone can approach their parents, but wouldn't it be wonderful if instead of relying on outside sources to teach our children about their bodies, we instead took that task upon ourselves?

[gadgetlady 4]

I'd like to know exactly why you're characterizing sex education the way you are right in the middle of this discussion about ideas of how to set up sex education so that it works and covers all the bases. No one has said that we have properly conducted or perfected the curriculum for sex education classes. And how could we expect that to happen when we've had a president who has been supporting abstinence-only classes for our children? Do you really think that has made a major impact on teen pregnancies? You say that it has had an impact. Well we need a darn sight more than an impact. We need a complete 180 degrees on this.

You think the past 40 years of sex ed has been a rip-roaring success? With all of the STDs and teen pregnancies that we have now? There are rampant STDs in our neighborhoods that were all but wiped out 50 years ago!

Why are people like you so opposed to kids knowing all about their anatomy and physiology, including their sexual organs? Because you think it's dirty

Where have I ever, ever said I was opposed to kids knowing about their anatomy and physiology? I said I was in favor of factual information being presented in schools. There are facets of it that I am against, as I have said above, but I am 100% in favor of the factual information.

And, typically, I am being accused of thinking sex is dirty. Quite the contrary. I think it is an incredible gift and kids should be made aware of just how special it is.

Public schools need proper sex education including the use of condoms. I don't know how you can possibly see it any other way. The rate of teen pregnancies, abortions, STDs, all point to it being a problem that is way out of control.

Again, because the last 40 years of "just do it if it feels good" education has been so successful.

[Carrie_C 9]

gadget, that's great that your kids feel comfortable coming to you. But a lot of kids don't have that kind of parent. What about the kids who have parents who won't help them at all? Where are they supposed to get the correct information about their bodies, sex, and birth control?

[BJean 16]

gadget says: "I don't want my children taught how to put a condom on. If you want yours taught that, then teach it to them. I think when a young man goes out and buys condoms, he's going to look at the box and read the directions. Plus, it's not rocket science."

Then why is improper use the primary reason for condom failure?

gadget says: "You think the past 40 years of sex ed has been a rip-roaring success? With all of the STDs and teen pregnancies that we have now? There are rampant STDs in our neighborhoods that were all but wiped out 50 years ago!

Again, because the last 40 years of "just do it if it feels good" education has been so successful."

The point that was being discussed here is that we have NOT had a successful sex ed program. And we certainly did not have any support for that under Mr. Bush because he focused all the money and attention on abstinence-only information being given to our children. So I don't know where you get that any real sex education that includes the things we were discussing here, has been taught to our children over the past 40 years. We have even given our own stories about how limited our sex education was. So I sure don't get where you're coming from on this rant about 40 years of sex education not working.

and Gadget added: "I'm not naive enough to believe everyone can approach their parents, but wouldn't it be wonderful if instead of relying on outside sources to teach our children about their bodies, we instead took that task upon ourselves?"

I think we all agree that if parents were equipped and willing to educate their children on this topic, there would be absolutely no need for the public schools to get involved. But teen pregnancy and all the rest are a national concern now. We all are affected by what's going on with our children. We must try to figure out a way to help them. Parents were never educated and they have no clue how to teach their children. So President Obama is trying to step up to the bar and find some help. I just hope that extremists who are narrow-minded and locked into their single minded ideas aren't able to shut him down.

[gadgetlady 4]

gadget, that's great that your kids feel comfortable coming to you. But a lot of kids don't have that kind of parent. What about the kids who have parents who won't help them at all? Where are they supposed to get the correct information about their bodies, sex, and birth control?

For the record, yet again, I do believe schools should be teaching factual information about basic biology and sex. It is the job of schools to convey basic educational information to the students. My objection is to subjects and/or methods that encourage sexual activity.

That being said, presumably there are a lot of topics that are educational but many would say are either out-of-line or not the appropriate venue for schools.

Would you agree that schools should be required to give gun training courses? After all, it's educational, and suppose they don't learn this information at home? Where are they going to get the correct information?

What about requiring schools to give information about hair coloring? Or torture methods? Or embalming processes? Or plumbing repair?

Yes, I am deliberately being random with the above examples. The point is, there is potentially an educational aspect to everything we discuss in life. Yet there are also both proper and improper venues for which these topics should be discussed and for which they should be required. I do not believe the classroom is the appropriate location for demonstrating how to put on condoms. I do believe it is the appropriate location for teaching students about basic biological functions, educating them about their bodies, and giving basic information about sexuality and how it affects them personally. There is nothing in the list that BJean presented above that I have a problem with!

[rodriguezequal 3]

...I lost it...

[gadgetlady 4]

Then why is improper use the primary reason for condom failure?

I believe the term "improper use" includes the statistic of not using it at all. In other words, if someone doesn't think they can get pregnant that time or they forget to use it or they don't have a spare when it breaks, it's all classified as "improper use".

The point that was being discussed here is that we have NOT had a successful sex ed program.

So in the years from the 1960's or the 1970's to when the horrible, evil Bush was in office (when sex ed in schools still happened, BTW), when students were being taught all about everything they need to know, why have teen pregnancy and STD rates skyrocketed? What wasn't being taught? What more do you want kids to know? I personally was taught everything I needed to know, and if I had questions I went to my school nurse.

[BJean 16]

I disagree with the premise that good sex education necessarily encourges or promotes sexual activity. Pretending that kids are not faced with a sometimes overwhelming drive to be sexually active, is unrealistic at best. The biological drive is present no matter what people are taught, whether it is basic anatomy or that abstinence is the only acceptible behavior. On the other hand, people usually handle things better when they are equipped with knowledge.

I wasn't thrilled with the kind of educational exposure my daugher got regarding how chickens and hogs and cows are slaughtered and prepared for the marketplace because it caused her to become a vegan. Becoming a vegan has put her at risk for many things, including difficulty in having children and being able to handle surgery very well and even getting injections. But I am glad that she has the information and can make her own informed and intelligent life decisions about it.

As for gun training courses and all the rest, we are in so many ways an impractical society. I would be all for gun training if every child got it. I do not believe that it would increase gun deaths. I believe it would reduce them.

We had vocational education courses for years that taught hair coloring, auto repair, drafting, plumbing methods, etc. It was a good thing. Not all children are mentally equipped to become rocket scientists. Besides, we need hairdressers, plumbers, auto repair people and the like.

As for torture, you can't be serious. As a country, we do not believe in torture. We have signed a pact saying that we do not torture. Why would we teach children how to Water board or place bamboo under the fingernails to make our captives scream? We know that torture doesn't work to get good information any better than less drastic methods. People mostly torture to inflict pain. It makes the torturer feel in control. And sometimes it actually gives them pleasure. It is frightful.

(And this is your fault - you unleashed the hounds on that one.)