who supports right to choose

[rodriguezequal 3]

Yeah and when 13 year olds start having back alley abortions and they die as well who are you "saving"?

[gadgetlady 4]

this is a debate that has been going on for years! Being hostile to one another to try and prove your point of view it rediculous.

People have been known to change their minds on this issue. In fact, Bernard Nathanson, who used to own the largest chain of abortion clinics in New York and was one of the co-founders of NARAL, is now pro-life. Norma McCorvey, Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade, is now pro-life. Nat Hentoff, a very outspoken liberal writer who used to be pro-abortion and who also used to write for the Village Voice, is now pro-life. There are many, many other former clinic workers and abortionists who are now pro-life, as well as many non-famous people who have also changed their minds on this issue.

[rodriguezequal 3]

There are also people who have change from pro life to pro choice...people who were faced with the choice to have or not have an abortion...it's not like all pro choicers are jumping ship and changing sides...pro lifers are too

[gadgetlady 4]

Oh and the definition or abortion is the termination of a pregnancy not of a child...

Depending on the dictionary, of course: the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus

fetus or embryo, of course, being a developing human being.

[rodriguezequal 3]

developing...not developed

[gadgetlady 4]

Yeah and when 13 year olds start having back alley abortions and they die as well who are you "saving"?

Mothers die from both legal and illegal abortions now. The statistics for illegal abortions pre-Roe were grossly exaggerated, and it's been demonstrated over and over again. While I don't advocate anyone's having an illegal procedure, to justify the actual killing of millions of unborn babies by trying to prevent the potential of self-harm of an unknown but certainly dramatically smaller number of mothers is just wrong.

[gadgetlady 4]

There are also people who have change from pro life to pro choice...people who were faced with the choice to have or not have an abortion...it's not like all pro choicers are jumping ship and changing sides...pro lifers are too

The trend is well documented in one direction. Look at the numbers of the population who supported abortion 10, 20, 30 years ago vs. the numbers now; there's a clear trend towards more pro-life views.

[gadgetlady 4]

developing...not developed

We are all still developing. We don't ever stop.

[rodriguezequal 3]

You are trying to make your numbers larger....while yes they maybe be larger it is not only pro choice to life...I know people that have gone from pro life to choice...

[BJean 16]

I disagree with all your follow-up posts, needless to say, gadget.

I wish it were as simple as you like to make it. But it just is not.

You cannot prove that there are fewer abortions, percentage-wise, when abortion is illegal. You do not have that kind of information. No one has compiled that data because it is impossible to obtain.

Any stats that you throw out on that issue are meaningless and trumped up.

And anti-choice people definitely have the mission to make women feel guilty. They prove it with all of their anti-abortion literature and movies and propaganda. I understand why. They believe that a fertilized egg is a complete human being. They are completely wrong, but they believe it. And because it is their belief, they also believe that it is their duty to save all the babies. I understand it, but I disagree with their tactics and I disagree with their message.

As far as you knowing more about the anti-choice movement than I do, I am certain that you are correct about that. I have no doubt that you could (and may) write a book on it. You know so much and are so involved that you could tour the country giving lectures on the similarities between slavery and abortion and that abortion is murder, pure and simple.

But I happen to know what is right for this country and for women and I know that the anti-choice movement is wrong for women and wrong for this country.

[BJean 16]

While I was posting mine, you were posting this:

"Mothers die from both legal and illegal abortions now. The statistics for illegal abortions pre-Roe were grossly exaggerated, and it's been demonstrated over and over again."

The only place that it has been demonstrated over and over again is in the anti-choice propaganda. As I said, there is no possible way that you or anyone else can know how many illegal abortions were done, pre-Roe v. Wade. And there is no way that you can know how many illegal abortions are done today. These kinds of claims make your entire argument look exaggerated and overblown.

Women die every single day from childbirth. We do have those stats. And we do have the stats for legal abortion deaths. I'm sure you have that in your arsenal. How many deaths actually happen as a result of abortions? How many deaths happen due to complications from childbirth?

Now don't go pulling numbers from your anti-abortion websites. Let's have the real numbers published by reputable research firms. I have no doubt that you have this information at your fingertips.

I know this is going to disappoint you, but I'm off to bed. It's very late here and even though this is fun times, I have to give it up for today. Ciao.

[gadgetlady 4]

You are trying to make your numbers larger....while yes they maybe be larger it is not only pro choice to life...I know people that have gone from pro life to choice...

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about trying to make the numbers larger. What I do know for sure is that the tide in this country is turning and has been for years. The number of people who support abortion now is lower than it was 10, 20, and 30 years ago respectively, and it keeps dropping.

[gadgetlady 4]

The only place that it has been demonstrated over and over again is in the anti-choice propaganda. As I said, there is no possible way that you or anyone else can know how many illegal abortions were done, pre-Roe v. Wade. And there is no way that you can know how many illegal abortions are done today. These kinds of claims make your entire argument look exaggerated and overblown.

If you look at the number of abortions performed the year after Roe, it was relatively low and you will see that it steadily increased until the early 2000's. You could very legitimately surmise that the number of illegal abortions the year prior to Roe didn't exceed the number of legal abortions the year after Roe. And if you look at subsequent years up until the early 2000s, there was a steady growth.

Further, if you look at the CDC numbers for deaths from illegal abortions and legal abortions pre-Roe, you'll find that the numbers have remained pretty steady. There was a dramatic decrease in the number of deaths from abortions in the 1950s and 1960s with the advance of things like antibiotics, but the number of both illegal and legal abortion deaths has remained pretty constant both pre- and post-Roe.

[gadgetlady 4]

Here's a statistic for you: Every year, more unborn are killed by abortion in the US than the combined total of Americans who have died in all wars in our history.

[BJean 16]

Sorry gadget you're putting two and two together and getting four.

If you want to talk about stats, let's talk about the overpopulation of the planet. Let's talk about children dying from starvation and disease. Let's talk about some of the grim statistics in the United States of children having children.

It could get so bad that the government might decide to pass a law that bans children from having children and forces 12 or 13 year old girls to undergo abortions rather than giving birth to babies.

What we were talking about, because you brought it up, is how many deaths of women occur due to botched illegal abortions that we can prove, statistically. And how many women die from complications from childbirth.

We all know that if no one ever had an abortion, there would never be deaths from abortion - either deaths to babies or deaths to mothers.

The fact of the matter is that no matter how many people decide that they are for a law against abortion - a law that prohibits women from making their own decisions with regard to abortion - there will still be abortions.

Just because you can state that fewer abortions will happen if it is illegal is not justification for passing a law to take this very personal and sometimes gut-wrenching decision out of the hands of the people who are personally involved.

I am always blown away by the fact that so many people in the anti-choice movement are vehemently oppposed to any kind of gun restriction or registration and also support the death penalty. I'm not talking about you. I'm pretty sure that you have told us that you are not in favor of capital punishment and that you do not oppose gun control. But for many people involved in the so-called "pro life" movement, it makes that term "pro-life" a misnomer and bogus to the core.

As a matter of fact, right now there are right wing nuts who are jumping up and down and screaming about how President Obama is going to take their guns away when in fact, he has not made a move to do so and it isn't even something that he has been talking about.

Those are the kinds of fear tactics that right wingers have used for years to control people. I think Americans are beginning to figure out that it is a political tactic - at least I sure hope so.