who supports right to choose

[Carrie_C 9]

gadget, I never meant to call you stupid, or any name at all. I was saying that the belief that teens aren't going to have sex and to only preach abstinence is stupid.

[Carrie_C 9]

Planned Parenthood has a history of doing many, many important things in our communities for women. Things that mothers won't do for their daughters, for instance, when the mother's belief is to preach abstinence and no abortions.

This was my mother exactly. She preached no sex until marriage. That's why I had to go to planned parenthood and get my birth control because I knew she never would take me.

[gadgetlady 4]

gadget, I never meant to call you stupid, or any name at all. I was saying that the belief that teens aren't going to have sex and to only preach abstinence is stupid.

Thank you Carrie. I appreciate that. I believe it is possible to have a rational discussion and understand each other's opinions without name calling. I believe, also, that you probably didn't recognize those were my words in quotes when you commented on my statement.

Now, that being said, I agree with you that it is unlikely that teens will stop having sex! I just don't agree that an organization which provides the backup to failed contraception, i.e. abortion, is the best organization to be giving them information. Because clearly, their stranglehold on the dispensation of such information hasn't been successful over the past 30 years. STDs, sexual activity, abortion, etc. have all increased. Are they the sole cause? Not wholly. But are they a part of it? I believe so.

And with that, I am really hoping I can walk away from this because I don't have the time today.

[pattygreen 5]

Funny green!

Thanks for your post, Cleo's Mom.

The other paradox which is so puzzling to many of us is that the "right-to-life" (which is their moniker of choice) people, support the death penalty. No amount of explaning can justify that. I think that calling themselves "right-to-life" does not appropriately describe what they advocate.

God set up a system for man to follow. Sometimes men choose not to obey his policies. The death penalty was to be used for those who murder and take life without cause. The difference here is that babies that are aborted are innocent victims who have done nothing wrong and are not deserving of death. Murderers are. This is why the 'right to life' motto is for the innocent babies and not those on death row for their inhumane crimes.

[rodriguezequal 3]

I just watch Religulous last night! It was a really great documetary! Anyone that has questioned religion should check it out! I loved it!!!! Sorry it's off topic...kind of :thumbup:

[BJean 16]

gadget the mods prefer that we try to refrain from posting our comments directly at another person when we are disagreeing with them and that we should keep our negative comments impersonal. That is all I am trying to do. You notice I mentioned Sarah Palin by name, not you or anyone else who is posting here.

It is not your style to post that way. You like to quote people specifically and direct your comments in the form of rebuttals or counter attacks. I find that distasteful and innappropriate because it feels like you are angry when you do that.

Therefore if I disagree with someone and feel the need to say something directly to them, I try to do it in a private message to them. Except this one, of course, and a few others. The reason I am directing this to you now is because I have explained this to you many times and you absolutely do not get it. Or you react to me in the way that you do for your own personal reasons. Whatever your reasons, it's your choice of course how you write your posts.

I have learned that although I may disagree with someone on one topic, we may fully agree on another. So I try to be civil although I admit that I am certainly not always successful.

[BJean 16]

Killing is killing. Pure and simple. You can separate a criminal from society to keep him from committing another crime.

Capital punishment is not a deterrent to rape or murder so that is not a valid reason for us to kill people.

I don't believe that God "thinks" that capital punishment - or killing people - is right. If he says that all you have to do is ask for forgiveness and believe in him and that Jesus died for you on the cross, then we are compelled to give every person their entire lives to accept Jesus as their personal savior and ask for forgiveness and thereby be able to go to heaven. Who are we to take that opportunity away from them?

Killing killers is still killing in God's eyes. You're saying that he's creating a person when he joins an egg and a sperm, so people who say they are against abortion for that reason, but who believe in capital punishment, must be killers at heart.

Isn't that what you've been telling us about people who get abortions? That's why it is such a paradox. If you value life and you believe in God and you believe in redemption, it seems to go against everything you believe in to support killing another human being whether it is a fertilized egg, a fetus or a full-grown human being.

Trust me I get the distinction you make and I fully understand your argument about a fetus being an innocent, but it falls flat when you argue that killing is acceptable in another situation.

[gadgetlady 4]

gadget the mods prefer that we try to refrain from posting our comments directly at another person when we are disagreeing with them and that we should keep our negative comments impersonal. That is all I am trying to do.

The point is not to engage in personal attacks. What you do is try to disguise them. You pretend (or perhaps you really believe) not to attack by taking something someone said, putting it in quotes but not attributing it to them, attacking them as stupid, and then innocently saying that you didn't include their name in the attack and therefore it's not personal.

You like to quote people specifically and direct your comments in the form of rebuttals or counter attacks. I find that distasteful and innappropriate because it feels like you are angry when you do that.

Sorry if you feel like I'm angry. I like to address specifically what someone's said so there's no confusion about what I'm talking about.

Anyway, I don't really care if you continue to do what you've done in the past. I will, however, continue to point it out.

[gadgetlady 4]

Killing is killing. Pure and simple.

Although I do not believe in capital punishment, I think there is a big distinction between killing and murder. Assuming we're talking biblically, since in this post you're talking about God and Jesus, there is a general belief that the commandment doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill" but rather "Thou shalt not murder." The verb used is the Hebrew ratsah, which translates to murder and refers to criminal acts of killing, and more specifically human beings. The verb for the generic "kill" is a different verb.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Just curious...if it says though shall not murder then killing is okay? I'm just a little confused I'm not trying to say you wrong or anything...I'm just trying to understand.

[gadgetlady 4]

Just curious...if it says though shall not murder then killing is okay? I'm just a little confused I'm not trying to say you wrong or anything...I'm just trying to understand.

I'm saying that there is a distinction in the law (and in the Bible) between killing and murder (that's why we have degrees of homicide and also manslaughter). There can be good arguments made that there are situations where killing is justified (e.g. killing someone in self-defense). I'm not making that argument specifically about capital punishment; I'm simply drawing the distinction between different types of killing.

[pattygreen 5]

Although I do not believe in capital punishment, I think there is a big distinction between killing and murder. Assuming we're talking biblically, since in this post you're talking about God and Jesus, there is a general belief that the commandment doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill" but rather "Thou shalt not murder." The verb used is the Hebrew ratsah, which translates to murder and refers to criminal acts of killing, and more specifically human beings. The verb for the generic "kill" is a different verb.

To 'murder' someone is to kill with an evil intent, To 'kill' someone is to rid them from society or to cause their life to end without evil intent. God does allow for the death penalty for those who murder others.

[pattygreen 5]

Killing is killing. Pure and simple. You can separate a criminal from society to keep him from committing another crime.

Capital punishment is not a deterrent to rape or murder so that is not a valid reason for us to kill people.

I don't believe that God "thinks" that capital punishment - or killing people - is right. If he says that all you have to do is ask for forgiveness and believe in him and that Jesus died for you on the cross, then we are compelled to give every person their entire lives to accept Jesus as their personal savior and ask for forgiveness and thereby be able to go to heaven. Who are we to take that opportunity away from them?

Killing killers is still killing in God's eyes. You're saying that he's creating a person when he joins an egg and a sperm, so people who say they are against abortion for that reason, but who believe in capital punishment, must be killers at heart.

Isn't that what you've been telling us about people who get abortions? That's why it is such a paradox. If you value life and you believe in God and you believe in redemption, it seems to go against everything you believe in to support killing another human being whether it is a fertilized egg, a fetus or a full-grown human being.

Trust me I get the distinction you make and I fully understand your argument about a fetus being an innocent, but it falls flat when you argue that killing is acceptable in another situation.

Jeffrey Dahlmer raped, killed, and ate parts of 13 men. As punishment, the government planned to use His victims familys tax money to feed, clothe, educate, medicate, entertain and legally represent him for the rest of his life. His victims families will pay for him to be warm in the winter, cool in the summer and comfortable throughout his life. There is a right way to deter criminals and end the crime epedemic. That deterrence does not lie in telling Dahlmer to "Go and eat (sin) no more." In the 60's there was an average of 6,000 murders a year. The US Supreme court struck down the death penalty as unconstitutional in the way it was administered. 6 years later when it was reinstituted in the early 70s, the average murder yearly jumped to 16,000. In Saudi Arabia where they enforce a swift and certain death penalty, violent crimes are rare. Singapore and Los Angeles have equal populations yet there are 58 murders in 1 yr. in Singapore as compared to 1,063 a year in LA.

God forbids murder in the 10 commandments, but he commands the lawful execution of murderers throughout the bible. I believe God knows what He's talking about!

You are correct when you say that God will forgive those who repent and ask for it. He is very merciful. If Dahlmer, when he had plenty of time to think on his crimes while in prison, truly repented and was sorrowful for what He did, God would forgive him, and He would be allowed entrance into Heaven. But, remember, God is also Just. Dahlmer is still deserving of his just punishment. Death. This is why even when we sin and do wrong, there are still consequences for what we've done even if we say we're sorry. You see this in life all the time.

As far as us taking the opportunity away from these murderers to accept Jesus as their savior by instilling the death penalty, I say... "When they committed their crime, GOD took away their opportunity to accept Jesus and be saved because HE made the death penalty law. Not us. Also,the bible says that God gives every man ample time in their lives to hear about his gift of eternal life and to turn from their wicked ways and live for Him."

"Whoever sheds mans blood, by man his blood shall be shed." Genesis 9:6

"And will you profane me among my people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live?" Ezek. 13:19

Edited February 26, 2009 by pattygreen

[coltonwade 27]

Jeffrey Dahlmer raped, killed, and ate parts of 13 men. As punishment, the government planned to use His victims familys tax money to feed, clothe, educate, medicate, entertain and legally represent him for the rest of his life. His victims families will pay for him to be warm in the winter, cool in the summer and comfortable throughout his life. There is a right way to deter criminals and end the crime epedemic. That deterrence does not lie in telling Dahlmer to "Go and eat (sin) no more." In the 60's there was an average of 6,000 murders a year. The US Supreme court struck down the death penalty as unconstitutional in the way it was administered. 6 years later when it was reinstituted in the early 70s, the average murder yearly jumped to 16,000. In Saudi Arabia where they enforce a swift and certain death penalty, violent crimes are rare. Singapore and Los Angeles have equal populations yet there are 58 murders in 1 yr. in Singapore as compared to 1,063 a year in LA.

God forbids murder in the 10 commandments, but he commands the lawful execution of murderers throughout the bible. I believe God knows what He's talking about!

You are correct when you say that God will forgive those who repent and ask for it. He is very merciful. If Dahlmer, when he had plenty of time to think on his crimes while in prison, truly repented and was sorrowful for what He did, God would forgive him, and He would be allowed entrance into Heaven. But, remember, God is also Just. Dahlmer is still deserving of his just punishment. Death. This is why even when we sin and do wrong, there are still consequences for what we've done even if we say we're sorry. You see this in life all the time.

As far as us taking the opportunity away from these murderers to accept Jesus as their savior by instilling the death penalty, I say... "When they committed their crime, GOD took away their opportunity to accept Jesus and be saved because HE made the death penalty law. Not us. Also,the bible says that God gives every man ample time in their lives to hear about his gift of eternal life and to turn from their wicked ways and live for Him."

"Whoever sheds mans blood, by man his blood shall be shed." Genesis 9:6

"And will you profane me among my people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live?" Ezek. 13:19

Because WHO made the death penalty possible ? god ? Is that what you just said ? So the death penalty is ok because GOD made it possible for the death penalty to be made.

But its NOT ok for abortion , didnt GOD make it possible for abortion to be legal ? cant have it both ways !!!

Mindy

[pattygreen 5]

Because WHO made the death penalty possible ? god ? Is that what you just said ?

Yes.

So the death penalty is ok because GOD made it possible for the death penalty to be made.

Yes.

But its NOT ok for abortion , didnt GOD make it possible for abortion to be legal ?

No. Man made abortion legal. God said, "If an unborn baby is killed, you shall give life for life." Do you see now why we should not allow abortions? God feels that those who have abortions are deserving of death.

cant have it both ways !!!

Don't want it both ways.

Mindy

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