who supports right to choose

[green 6]

Green I have told you this before that I admire you for realizing that you do not want to have children and taking steps to not have them instead of being one of those people who know they are not or would not be a good mother and have them . I do not think everyone has to be a mother.

Or every woman woudl be a good mother, Geesh have you watched the news lately ?

I had my first son at 16 i can not take birth control due to Migraines but took other steps to make sure i would not get pregnant again . When i ended up pregnant at 19 after ending an abusive relationship I was not going to have a baby with someone who had just got done beating me so badly he put me in the hospital for days on end.

Nor did having 2 kids at age 19 and being a single mother look appealing to me. I knew if i had the baby the father would not have given it up for adoption.

I had the abortion it was the right thing for me to do under my circumstances at the time. When I say it still upsets me or bothers me , the circumstances around the abortion bothered me , I was upset that i got pregnant to begin with and upset that the circumstances did not allow me to have the baby ( DONT FREAKING TELL ME I COULD HAVE EITHER I wont listen to that shit from anyone now )

As a mother and a human being the abortion i think bothers people , it just does. It not an easy thing to do. I think people who do not agree with abortion think those of us who have them use them as birth control or that we think of them as the easy way out. its not the case for me at least.

I still do not regret the choice i made it was the right one . My life was hard enough bringing up my son alone it would have been nearly impossible or much much different with another one ! I do not regret it . you can have a choice bother you , upset you and it STILL be the right thing to do .

Mindy

I am pleased to read your response, Mindy, for to tell you the truth, I posted my own account in part with you in mind. It seems to me that there is a lot of attempted mind-reading that is taking place on the part of those who are pro-life. I wanted to demonstrate that we who had undertaken the final option all have different tales to tell and hold different attitudes towards our abortions.

Your abortion certainly made sense within the framework of your own life and times. You were very young. You were trapped in an abusive marriage which may well have lasted longer and been more difficult to exit from had you continued on with this pregnancy. Too, you didn't have much bucks and pregnancy is expensive south of the border where one does not have universal health care. Medical bills are costly. Clothes are expensive and so is eating healthfully for two.

My own abortion made sense within the framework of my poor mental health and my complete lack of maternal instinct.

I am certain that there are many other tales where abortion makes sense; we just haven't heard 'em yet.

[pattygreen 5]

Pattygreen: How many hard to place unwanted children have you adopted?

three.

Me? None. I have two biological children but then again I don't want to force women to have unwanted babies. Healthy white infants are not unwanted. Long waiting list of adoptive parents for them. But most of the other babies forced to be born would be. There are way more hard to place infants, babies and older children than there are people willing to adopt them. And they often live very troubled, often criminal, lives. Not all, but many. Because they start life in a dysfunctional setting.

The outcome of a childs life is not to be taken into consideration concerning whether we should be allowed to kill them or not before they are born. After all, there are many 'wanted' babies who end up in very troubled and criminal lives.

You have a very punitive attitude toward women. You want to punish them for having sex and getting pregnant if they choose abortion.

No. I want to punish ANYONE, male or female, who murders ANYONE. (The unborn, infants, children or adults)

You talk of medieval punishment (or maybe more recently in our wild west) and equate it with a reduction in crime. Do you really want to have a debate about life in those days, how people were treated, especially women? You'd lose. Women were chattel. But women still had abortions. Women have always had abortions. They just knew some old lady with a hook and often died as a result. I don't think women having sex today think, "I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant."

You are wrong about that. Maybe not all woman think they will just have an abortion if they get pregnant, but many do. I overheard a discussion a few teens were having in my back yard and one girl said, "I don't worry about it. If I got pregnant, I'd just have him give me the cash for an abortion. No biggie." Yes, some do use abortion as a form of birthcontrol. My ex sisterinlaw got pregnant 3x and had 3 abortions.

It is a very difficult decision for most women but you want to throw them in jail. What would that solve? Has throwing drug dealers in jail solved our drug problem? I'm almost laughing as I type that. Desperate women will still seek abortion but you would rather make it illegal and unsafe and have women die at the hands of butchers, like they used to.

And the way it is now, babies die at the hands of butchers every day, millions of them.

You probably think that if a woman seeks an illegal abortion and dies that she deserves it. And you speak nothing about the men who get the women pregnant. If they take her for her illegal abortion should they be thrown in jail too?

They should be considered an accomplice to the murder.

So then, do we throw the women, the men and the doctors all in jail?

If it were a law, there wouldn't be any doctors who would be willing to risk their 8 yrs. of college they put in to become a dr. just to perform that 'procedure' as prochoicers call it. So, only the women who attempt to abort under the law would go to jail.

And if they're all caught before the abortion - do we throw the pregant women in jail to give birth there and then what? Take the baby from her? Let her keep it? Let her out of jail? Abortion should be rare, safe and legal. We need to do a better job of providing information to young girls and boys about contraception because the debate is over about abstience only education (is that the voice of Bristol Palin I hear in the background saying it is unrealistic?) - it doesn't work. And birth control has to be more readily available to teens. They are not going to stop having sex. So they need to be safe. All women (and men) have the right to have access to free or affordable contraception. That's the way to reduce unwanted pregnancies and thus abortions. Through education and access, not making it criminal.

I couldn't agree with you more. (on the education thing) I feel that every teen should be taught God's plan for them. (Sex should be abstained from until marriage.) If you feel you can't abstain, and you want to disobey God, then at least protect yourself from getting pregnant. Sorry, but I don't agree with you on not making it a crime. ALL murder should not go unpunished.

Edited February 23, 2009 by pattygreen

[green 6]

I couldn't agree with you more. (on the education thing) I feel that every teen should be taught God's plan for them. (Sex should be abstained from until marriage.) If you feel you can't abstain, and you want to disobey God, then at least protect yourself from getting pregnant. Sorry, but I don't agree with you on not making it a crime. ALL murder should not go unpunished.

As an atheist I believe that all teens should be taught all contraceptive methods. Teens are by temperament rebellious, experimental, and horny. I think that we must take a practical approach to teens because whatever we teach them, they will take risks and some of them, tragically, will be caught by an unwanted pregnancy.

I sure was a horny, risk-taking teen. I got kicked out of a religious boarding school for experimenting with drugs. This was much to my parents' dismay. Now, I am a solid, tax-paying, well-educated, property-owning retiree without a rap-sheet! Har..... Who'd a thought, eh?

[pattygreen 5]

If my son was so independant in the womb why did he not grow right? If my son was independently developing then why did he need my blood and my fluids to susstain his environment? If my son was so independent when he was born 2 months early then why did he need tubes and machines to allow him to survive for 4 months? Hmm...why did your "God" chose children like him and women like me to deal with something that horrible? Why at 20 was I expected by your "God" to watch my son suffer in the NICU for 4 months and then the PICU for another 2 1/2? Why out of all the women that smoked, drank and did drugs while they were pregnant...why did I have the baby with all of the problems and theirs were "perfect"? Hmmm...where was your "God" when I was raped and impregnanted by a family member? Let me tell you where he was...He was next to me holding my hand telling me that it would be okay. He was there watching over me making sure that I was okay. He was there to support me when I did something no girl my age should have had to choose...I made my dicission because it was the right one for me and for my unborn son...even your "God" was there, holding me and telling me that no matter what I did I was his child and he was there for me...to love me unconditionally the way he knew any father or mother should love their children. Let me tellyou something "God" was with me when I had a son that was born purple and bleeding to death. He was there for me as I watched my son being fed through a tube! He was there for me when I watched him suffer every hour of everyday for those first months...and he is still here with me in our sufferring. This "God"...this God that you are saying would be angered by things like that, would be angered by an abortion...was there holding my hand as I aborted my unborn baby that would have been related to me in other ways than a mother.

I believe that God was with you through all you have gone through. I'm not going to deny that. God loves you more than you know. He definitly has compassion on everyone that goes through these kinds of things. But I will say that even though he loves us and has compassion on us, he still does not approve of abortion. And when you say that it was your choice to do it, you are right. It was your choice. But not the right choice in God's eyes. God is just. To take the life of any human being for any reason will not go unpunished. The only way to avoid the discipline of God is to allow Jesus to take that punishment for you. (which he did when he gave his life for yours on the cross) If you believe in him, then you will be set free from God's wrath. This is the only way. (and not just for abortions, but for any sin) See how much the Father loves us? He knew that we could not go thru this life perfectly, so he provided a way for us to be able to enter into heaven (dispite our sin).

It says it in the Bible that God is forgiving, God is all loving, God is our Father. If I pray to God and he gives me an answer that you don't think he should, then maybe you should take it up with God...

God IS forgiving. I believe that.

It is the woman's life too. What if it would kill her? What if the baby would be a product of a rape, an underaged rape, and incestual rape? Huh? Does the mother not have the choice to do what is right for her?

If having a pregancy to term will kill the woman, then, and only then, do I believe an abortion can be performed. In the case of rape, as hard as it may be for the mom, she should deliver the child and if she can not bare to raise it herself, she should give it up for adoption. The child is the innocent product of a crime. And should not be punished for his biological fathers sin.

I made the choice that I made. To tell you the truth. If I had to do it again I would have done the same thing. It was right for me and it was right for my unborn. I'm sorry if you don't feel the same way, but you were not in my position and you were not in the position to have to think about abortion or adoption or just going through with it...When you have to stand in the shoes I stood in so long ago, then come to me and tell me how easy it was for you to make that choice!

I am sorry for all you've been through.

[rodriguezequal 3]

So if you were young as I was and raped by a family member as I was and became pregnant with a baby that that family member fathered...it still would not be right to have an abortion? You will never understand that, you will never understand the choice that I had to make, but that's okay. I made that choice because it was the best for me and the unborn child. My parents, being amazing parents, stood by my side through all of it. Holding my hand and telling em that I was doing the right thing. I know that I did the right thing and as I said before I would not change how I went about it! It was not my fault that it happened and my body was too young to carry a baby...

[green 6]

If my son was so independant in the womb why did he not grow right? If my son was independently developing then why did he need my blood and my fluids to susstain his environment? If my son was so independent when he was born 2 months early then why did he need tubes and machines to allow him to survive for 4 months? Hmm...why did your "God" chose children like him and women like me to deal with something that horrible? Why at 20 was I expected by your "God" to watch my son suffer in the NICU for 4 months and then the PICU for another 2 1/2? Why out of all the women that smoked, drank and did drugs while they were pregnant...why did I have the baby with all of the problems and theirs were "perfect"? Hmmm...where was your "God" when I was raped and impregnanted by a family member? Let me tell you where he was...He was next to me holding my hand telling me that it would be okay. He was there watching over me making sure that I was okay. He was there to support me when I did something no girl my age should have had to choose...I made my dicission because it was the right one for me and for my unborn son...even your "God" was there, holding me and telling me that no matter what I did I was his child and he was there for me...to love me unconditionally the way he knew any father or mother should love their children. Let me tellyou something "God" was with me when I had a son that was born purple and bleeding to death. He was there for me as I watched my son being fed through a tube! He was there for me when I watched him suffer every hour of everyday for those first months...and he is still here with me in our sufferring. This "God"...this God that you are saying would be angered by things like that, would be angered by an abortion...was there holding my hand as I aborted my unborn baby that would have been related to me in other ways than a mother. It says it in the Bible that God is forgiving, God is all loving, God is our Father. If I pray to God and he gives me an answer that you don't think he should, then maybe you should take it up with God...

It is the woman's life too. What if it would kill her? What if the baby would be a product of a rape, an underaged rape, and incestual rape? Huh? Does the mother not have the choice to do what is right for her?

I made the choice that I made. To tell you the truth. If I had to do it again I would have done the same thing. It was right for me and it was right for my unborn. I'm sorry if you don't feel the same way, but you were not in my position and you were not in the position to have to think about abortion or adoption or just going through with it...When you have to stand in the shoes I stood in so long ago, then come to me and tell me how easy it was for you to make that choice!

From what I have been reading and trying to understand about the science of genetics it seems that when the sperm and the egg DNA split and then unite (in order to create a new life form) errors are sometimes made in the copying of this DNA mechanism; this mechanism, by the way, is what will "tell" your baby in what order his brain, lungs, legs, and heart must grow. If this is compromised, this will result in birth defects. Fortunately, this occurs relatively rarely. It is felt that we do live in a polluted world and that some of the chemicals to which we are exposed are teratogenic - this means that they can create genetic birth errors. Some of these birth defects are, tragically, related to the parental DNA which is also defective. Many of these defects are recessive which means that it takes two of them to come together in order for them to manifest themselves. Older parents also run the risk of having faulty DNA; this would be because they have lived longer and everything about their bodies is ageing and breaking down, is sadly much less reliable. And, too, they have been exposed to a helluva lot more chemical toxins.

I am very sorry to hear of all that you have endured with the birth of your baby. My parents, by the way, had us when they were in their 30s. All three of us were born less than perfect - but were fixable - and two of us became ill with cancer (my kid brother died of cancer when he was 49) before we were seniors. My parents and their sibs lived to be old farts.

I personally find it much easier to understand and more comforting to believe in scientific explanations than God-based ones. I hope that my explanation has been of some use to you. It sounds to me like you had spectacular bad luck, but I don't think God sent you anything.

[rodriguezequal 3]

None of my son's problems were genetic or caused by chemicals...My son was born missing muscles, he has a paralyzed vocal, half of his tongue is paralyzed he has a brain malformation, he lost a lot of blood when he was born he had to have infusions. None of my sons problems are fixable. He will have all these problems for the rest of his life. It sucks and it was hard to deal with alone. My son is home now, but unable to eat on his own. He will be two next month and he eats through a tube in his stomach. I don't blame anyone for what happened to my son...for a long time I blamed myself. I felt like I wasn't a good mother, that I was so unhealthy that I couldn't have a normal baby. I wanted a lot of kids...and now he may be all I will have (he is a wonderful little boy). Sometimes I feel incomplete. The doctors told me I may never have another baby. They told me that they were suprised that I carried him as long as I did...they told me if I try again, I may have numerous miscarries and I'm just not sure if I could handle that. I love my son and though I wish that things had gone differently, I wouldn't change him for any healthy baby in the world I love my son more than I have ever loved anything or anyone before and I am blessed to have him! You can check pics of him out on my myspace under my Jack folder www.myspace.com/HolliRodriguez Most doctors are shocked when they hear his problems. Most of them have not seen babies with problems like him before...he is my little boy and I love him with every inch of my heart :huh2: lol Thought I would just share a little...off topic sorry

[pattygreen 5]

So if you were young as I was and raped by a family member as I was and became pregnant with a baby that that family member fathered...it still would not be right to have an abortion?

It is never right to have an abortion, because no one has the right to take someone elses life despite how it will effect them if that life continues to live.

I sympathize with all rape victims. It is a horrible thing for anyone to endure, especially a young person, but I also must sympathize with the unborn life who has done absolutely nothing deserving of death. I understand that you did what you felt was the right thing at the time. But I will not back down on what I know God feels about abortion. He did not approve of it, even if you think He felt it was ok for your circumstance. He did however hate what was done to you.

What is done is done. God forgives all who have had abortions if they ask him for it. Of course, if you feel as you say you do, that you did the right thing, and would make the same choice if you had to do it again, then it is a very sad thing that you will not be able to experience God's forgiveness for it. I hope you will reconsider, because God wants to forgive all of us who make choices that go against His will.

You will never understand that, you will never understand the choice that I had to make, but that's okay. I made that choice because it was the best for me and the unborn child. My parents, being amazing parents, stood by my side through all of it. Holding my hand and telling em that I was doing the right thing. I know that I did the right thing and as I said before I would not change how I went about it! It was not my fault that it happened and my body was too young to carry a baby...

...............................................................

[coltonwade 27]

I couldn't agree with you more. (on the education thing) I feel that every teen should be taught God's plan for them. (Sex should be abstained from until marriage.) If you feel you can't abstain, and you want to disobey God, then at least protect yourself from getting pregnant. Sorry, but I don't agree with you on not making it a crime. ALL murder should not go unpunished.

THIS is how teens end up pregnant !! You tell a teen " DO NOT Have sex if you do your DISOBEYING GOD " you want to have a teen get pregnant and have an abortion TELL them that shit !

My parents told me DONT HAVE SEX DONT HAVE SEX its WRONG WRONG WRONG your wrong if you do it.

THEN turned aroun dand asked me " do you need to be on the pill" NOW hummm why the hell would i tell you to put me on the pill when you have told me from day 1 how wrong it is to have sex? does not take a genious to figure that out !!

So you drill into a kid how wrong sex is and how your disobeying disappointing god by having it . then tell them " BUT you can come to me if you need protection I can all but gurantee you it wont happen ! I have a 16 yr old son .

I have told him from day one , " I would rather you wait to have sex until your married, however if you do not wait I will not be dissapointed in you and I will love you no matter what " HERE are your condems , this is how you use them ect. "

He walks out of this house on dates and my questions to him are " got money , got enough gas, got condoms" If he has questions about sex he comes to me . Guess what ? He's almost 17 and still a virgin . Do i know that 100% yes i do !

My 17 yr old sister, who my parents are still raising the same as they raised me with the dont dont dont crap ... came to ME to put her on the pill . My parents did not learn crap from me . Anyone who thinks telling a kid to abstain and ONLY abstain is sadly mistaken it will work . Some day people will realize that ! Anyone who thinks shaming a kid with God or anything or anyone else will make them not have sex is sadly mistaken too ! If your willing to be a grand parent at an early age keep that process up !!

Mindy

[green 6]

DNA is very fascinating and very complicated stuff: it will not only advise the organism that he or she is to have blond hair instead of feathers but when - at what stage of his development while he is still in the uterus - it is time for him to grow these features. It is no wonder that they refer to DNA as the very building blocks of life! The more I read about this the more I am enthralled by what scientists have discovered.

[kiz 1]

Pattygreen: What is done is done. God forgives all who have had abortions if they ask him for it. Of course, if you feel as you say you do, that you did the right thing, and would make the same choice if you had to do it again, then it is a very sad thing that you will not be able to experience God's forgiveness for it. I hope you will reconsider, because God wants to forgive all of us who make choices that go against His will.

Personally, I find you putting yourself in the position to speak for God highly offensive, if not sinful. Only God knows what is in this young woman's heart, and as far as I know, He has the Last Word on forgiveness.

[coltonwade 27]

None of my son's problems were genetic or caused by chemicals...My son was born missing muscles, he has a paralyzed vocal, half of his tongue is paralyzed he has a brain malformation, he lost a lot of blood when he was born he had to have infusions. None of my sons problems are fixable. He will have all these problems for the rest of his life. It sucks and it was hard to deal with alone. My son is home now, but unable to eat on his own. He will be two next month and he eats through a tube in his stomach. I don't blame anyone for what happened to my son...for a long time I blamed myself. I felt like I wasn't a good mother, that I was so unhealthy that I couldn't have a normal baby. I wanted a lot of kids...and now he may be all I will have (he is a wonderful little boy). Sometimes I feel incomplete. The doctors told me I may never have another baby. They told me that they were suprised that I carried him as long as I did...they told me if I try again, I may have numerous miscarries and I'm just not sure if I could handle that. I love my son and though I wish that things had gone differently, I wouldn't change him for any healthy baby in the world I love my son more than I have ever loved anything or anyone before and I am blessed to have him! You can check pics of him out on my myspace under my Jack folder www.myspace.com/HolliRodriguez Most doctors are shocked when they hear his problems. Most of them have not seen babies with problems like him before...he is my little boy and I love him with every inch of my heart :huh2: lol Thought I would just share a little...off topic sorry

I was just looking at your myspace page. your an amazing mother, woman and person Holli . I dont know that I could handle what you have gone through.

You have done a wonderful job , and to top it off your husband is in the military ? WOW !! He seems like an awesome man as well ! I LOVE The daddy doll that is the cutest thing !!!

Mindy

[gadgetlady 4]

I am REALLY sick and tired of people saying " dead baby " chose to kill . SERIOUSLY !!! All of you who are such wonderful "Christians" need to think about what your saying and how your saying it . In every other post your saying " SO YOU think its ok to KILL A BABY , its ok for a woman to KILL A baby , kill kill kill " But then when someone gets pissed off because they get offended that your calling a woman who has had an abortion a murderer you say " NO I did not say that" Yes you did. Just in a round about way you just wont stand behind that !

You guys are going gangbusters today and I don't have time to respond to everything, but I do want to respond to this because I hear your anger and you deserve to understand my reasoning.

Imagine you are trapped in a very scary room. There are two doors. One is locked. The other one opens up to a forest that looks very intimidating and, while you know you can get through it, it's a very long path and you know it will be scary and possibly painful to make it the entire way through. There is a gun in the room, and you can shoot the lock on the other door and make it out to the open easily. A voice tells you there is someone behind the door, and if you shoot the lock you will kill them.

If you choose to shoot the lock and kill the person behind it, it is murder; you had another choice, albeit painful, and you chose the option that you knew would take someone's life.

But now imagine the voice tells you you can shoot through the lock and there's something behind the door, but it's not a person. You choose to shoot and find out later that it really was a person behind the door. You have killed them, but is it murder?

I believe the abortionist is a murderer because he knows exactly what he's doing; he sees the body parts coming out of his "patients" every day. But I believe mothers who are scared and desperate and have been told a variety of things about the unborn are not murderers by definition because they had been convinced prior to the abortion (and often remain convinced afterwards) that the life they took was not that of a baby.

I hope that explains my position on this. I emphatically do not consider anyone on this board who has had an abortion a murderer.

green, I just want to say one thing to you: I think your mother did you a tremendous disservice, and I'm sorry for what you went through as a child. I think you would have made an awesome mother.

[green 6]

Personally, I find you putting yourself in the position to speak for God highly offensive, if not sinful. Only God knows what is in this young woman's heart, and as far as I know, He has the Last Word on forgiveness.

Yep, I'll drink to that!!!!

[green 6]

I was just looking at your myspace page. your an amazing mother, woman and person Holli . I dont know that I could handle what you have gone through.

You have done a wonderful job , and to top it off your husband is in the military ? WOW !! He seems like an awesome man as well ! I LOVE The daddy doll that is the cutest thing !!!

Mindy

I agree with Mindy. I was just visiting your photo gallery and found them to be very cute and very touching.