who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

I never said babies weren't fully human.

You may not have, but others have.

In a perfect world, women would not need to have an abortion. However, this is not a perfect world.

If unborn babies are fully human, what right do we have to kill these innocent human beings for any reason? What right do we have to deny them life for any reason other than they're physically threatening the life of another? I understand the myriad of issues surrounding unplanned pregnancies, but we don't kill people to solve social problems -- or at least we shouldn't.

[Carrie_C 9]

"I don't have any problem with birth contol as long as it doesn't kill the baby. For there are a few contraceptions that kill the fertilized egg and wash it out of the mother."

patty, what type of contraception is this???

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Pattygreen: How many hard to place unwanted children have you adopted? Me? None. I have two biological children but then again I don't want to force women to have unwanted babies. Healthy white infants are not unwanted. Long waiting list of adoptive parents for them. But most of the other babies forced to be born would be. There are way more hard to place infants, babies and older children than there are people willing to adopt them. And they often live very troubled, often criminal, lives. Not all, but many. Because they start life in a dysfunctional setting.

You have a very punitive attitude toward women. You want to punish them for having sex and getting pregnant if they choose abortion. You talk of medieval punishment (or maybe more recently in our wild west) and equate it with a reduction in crime. Do you really want to have a debate about life in those days, how people were treated, especially women? You'd lose. Women were chattel. But women still had abortions. Women have always had abortions. They just knew some old lady with a hook and often died as a result. I don't think women having sex today think, "I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant." It is a very difficult decision for most women but you want to throw them in jail. What would that solve? Has throwing drug dealers in jail solved our drug problem? I'm almost laughing as I type that. Desperate women will still seek abortion but you would rather make it illegal and unsafe and have women die at the hands of butchers, like they used to. You probably think that if a woman seeks an illegal abortion and dies that she deserves it. And you speak nothing about the men who get the women pregnant. If they take her for her illegal abortion should they be thrown in jail too? So then, do we throw the women, the men and the doctors all in jail? And if they're all caught before the abortion - do we throw the pregant women in jail to give birth there and then what? Take the baby from her? Let her keep it? Let her out of jail? Abortion should be rare, safe and legal. We need to do a better job of providing information to young girls and boys about contraception because the debate is over about abstience only education (is that the voice of Bristol Palin I hear in the background saying it is unrealistic?) - it doesn't work. And birth control has to be more readily available to teens. They are not going to stop having sex. So they need to be safe. All women (and men) have the right to have access to free or affordable contraception. That's the way to reduce unwanted pregnancies and thus abortions. Through education and access, not making it criminal.

[coltonwade 27]

Mindy, let me ask you a question -- it's a total hypothetical but I think the way medicine is advancing it may one day be a possibility. If doctors could take an unborn baby who the mother wanted to abort, remove him or her from the biological mother's womb, and either keep him or her alive through technology or implant him or her into another (willing) woman's womb, would you see this as an acceptable alternative to the "right" to abortion? In other words, would it be acceptable for the state to compel mothers to undertake this scenario instead of allowing them to abort?

Would i have a problem with a woman having the choice ? NO woudl I have a problem with the state, federal govt. forcing them to ? YES . I have a problem with "keeping" it alive with technology though. either way i personally believe it should be left up to the woman no matter what .

Its her choice. If she felt that was a better choice for her then i would not have an issue with that.

Mindy

[BJean 16]

I disagree with the premise that slave owners thought that slaves weren't human. They may have treated them inhumanely, but they knew they were human.

A fertilized egg is human tissue. It is HUMAN! I don't know how anyone can dispute that human cells are human.

But a few cells don't make a human being or an individual person. A fertlized egg, an embryo even, is definitely a part of the mother. It cannot survive without its' host. The cells have to have the mother in order to survive at least up to a certain point in development.

But none of this matters. The question on the table is whether a woman has the right to make her own decisions about a cluster of human cells growing in her body. She has that right. She has that ability. There is nothing you can physically do to stop her.

Cleo's mom has a totally practical and sensible approach to the subject. It is the way life is and we have to deal with the reality of the subject, not make up theoretical what-ifs or comparisons between abortion and slavery. That is an interesting tactic.

It is an outrageous analogy used to equate pro-choice people to racially biased slave owners. I mean it's been boiled down to something so raw and hateful it is hard to believe that anti-choice people can honestly say these things without being embarrassed.

And gadget, before you jump on me for accusing you of anything, I fully understand that the things we read here are things that the right to life movement has cooked up and carefully calibrated to feed its' followers. I'm not pointing fingers at you personally. I look at this as a "movement" of which you may be a part, but I do not view you as the movement.

Cleo's mom: Cleo is very lucky to have such a smart and informed woman for her mother.

[BJean 16]

Go Mindy, go Mindy!

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I disagree with the premise that slave owners thought that slaves weren't human. They may have treated them inhumanely, but they knew they were human.

A fertilized egg is human tissue. It is HUMAN! I don't know how anyone can dispute that human cells are human.

But a few cells don't make a human being or an individual person. A fertlized egg, an embryo even, is definitely a part of the mother. It cannot survive without its' host. The cells have to have the mother in order to survive at least up to a certain point in development.

But none of this matters. The question on the table is whether a woman has the right to make her own decisions about a cluster of human cells growing in her body. She has that right. She has that ability. There is nothing you can physically do to stop her.

Cleo's mom has a totally practical and sensible approach to the subject. It is the way life is and we have to deal with the reality of the subject, not make up theoretical what-ifs or comparisons between abortion and slavery. That is an interesting tactic.

It is an outrageous analogy used to equate pro-choice people to racially biased slave owners. I mean it's been boiled down to something so raw and hateful it is hard to believe that anti-choice people can honestly say these things without being embarrassed.

And gadget, before you jump on me for accusing you of anything, I fully understand that the things we read here are things that the right to life movement has cooked up and carefully calibrated to feed its' followers. I'm not pointing fingers at you personally. I look at this as a "movement" of which you may be a part, but I do not view you as the movement.

Cleo's mom: Cleo is very lucky to have such a smart and informed woman for her mother.

I'll write it again.. block the weirdo extreme types and life is peachy on the boards! ;o)

[gadgetlady 4]

Would i have a problem with a woman having the choice ? NO woudl I have a problem with the state, federal govt. forcing them to ? YES . I have a problem with "keeping" it alive with technology though. either way i personally believe it should be left up to the woman no matter what .

Its her choice. If she felt that was a better choice for her then i would not have an issue with that.

Mindy

So if medical technology can make a woman "unpregnant" without incident to her while simultaneously not harming the unborn baby, you'd still want her to have the decision as to whether the baby lives or dies?

Then her "right" is not abortion, but the right to a dead baby.

[gadgetlady 4]

I disagree with the premise that slave owners thought that slaves weren't human. They may have treated them inhumanely, but they knew they were human.

They defined them legally as 3/5 of a human being so that they could exploit them. They believed them to be human, but not fully human. This concept can be traced at least as far back as Aristotle.

A fertilized egg is human tissue. It is HUMAN! I don't know how anyone can dispute that human cells are human.

But a few cells don't make a human being or an individual person. A fertlized egg, an embryo even, is definitely a part of the mother.

From the moment of conception, the unborn baby is an individual entity separate from the mother, with his or her own DNA. The baby's circulatory system is self-contained and he or she may have a different blood type than the mother. He or she has separate organs. There is no question that the baby is not "part" of the mother.

But none of this matters.

It matters if in procuring an abortion she is simultaneously taking the life of another person.

It is an outrageous analogy used to equate pro-choice people to racially biased slave owners. I mean it's been boiled down to something so raw and hateful it is hard to believe that anti-choice people can honestly say these things without being embarrassed.

It is simply a philosophical comparison. And I still haven't heard from anyone what criterion they'd use to prove that a black person is fully human. Other than, "it's obvious" and "that's a hateful analogy."

I fully understand that the things we read here are things that the right to life movement has cooked up and carefully calibrated to feed its' followers. I'm not pointing fingers at you personally. I look at this as a "movement" of which you may be a part, but I do not view you as the movement.

Sorry to inform you; I'm not an unwitting dupe of the pro-life movement. I was pro-life before I heard any of the "arguments" and before I developed my own, simply because it was patently obvious to me that in aborting a child, his or her mother is taking his or her life. To ignore that fact is to ignore elementary school biology.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Carrie and Bjean, even if you don't believe that God disapproves of abortion, would you believe science supports that an unborn baby is just as much an independent human being as you are? The original human cell consists of 46 chromosomes, 23 from each parent. At no point during the pregnancy does the mother contribute any new cells to the child. The original cell divides itself and multiplies to provide development and growth to the child. Scientifically speaking, the child is just as dependent at 6 months before birth as he will be 6 months after birth. Yes, the mom provides nourishment to the unborn child, but she also provides nourishment for the newly born child.

If my son was so independant in the womb why did he not grow right? If my son was independently developing then why did he need my blood and my fluids to susstain his environment? If my son was so independent when he was born 2 months early then why did he need tubes and machines to allow him to survive for 4 months? Hmm...why did your "God" chose children like him and women like me to deal with something that horrible? Why at 20 was I expected by your "God" to watch my son suffer in the NICU for 4 months and then the PICU for another 2 1/2? Why out of all the women that smoked, drank and did drugs while they were pregnant...why did I have the baby with all of the problems and theirs were "perfect"? Hmmm...where was your "God" when I was raped and impregnanted by a family member? Let me tell you where he was...He was next to me holding my hand telling me that it would be okay. He was there watching over me making sure that I was okay. He was there to support me when I did something no girl my age should have had to choose...I made my dicission because it was the right one for me and for my unborn son...even your "God" was there, holding me and telling me that no matter what I did I was his child and he was there for me...to love me unconditionally the way he knew any father or mother should love their children. Let me tellyou something "God" was with me when I had a son that was born purple and bleeding to death. He was there for me as I watched my son being fed through a tube! He was there for me when I watched him suffer every hour of everyday for those first months...and he is still here with me in our sufferring. This "God"...this God that you are saying would be angered by things like that, would be angered by an abortion...was there holding my hand as I aborted my unborn baby that would have been related to me in other ways than a mother. It says it in the Bible that God is forgiving, God is all loving, God is our Father. If I pray to God and he gives me an answer that you don't think he should, then maybe you should take it up with God...

How can you put a price on human life? Good thing it isn't your life we are talking about here.

It is the woman's life too. What if it would kill her? What if the baby would be a product of a rape, an underaged rape, and incestual rape? Huh? Does the mother not have the choice to do what is right for her?

I made the choice that I made. To tell you the truth. If I had to do it again I would have done the same thing. It was right for me and it was right for my unborn. I'm sorry if you don't feel the same way, but you were not in my position and you were not in the position to have to think about abortion or adoption or just going through with it...When you have to stand in the shoes I stood in so long ago, then come to me and tell me how easy it was for you to make that choice!

[coltonwade 27]

So if medical technology can make a woman "unpregnant" without incident to her while simultaneously not harming the unborn baby, you'd still want her to have the decision as to whether the baby lives or dies?

Then her "right" is not abortion, but the right to a dead baby.

See what all of you do not get is I do not see a fetus as a baby, one that can live on its own until 22-24 weeks. It can not sustain life on its own until then. Do I agree with late term abortions no i do not at all.

I am REALLY sick and tired of people saying " dead baby " chose to kill . SERIOUSLY !!! All of you who are such wonderful "Christians" need to think about what your saying and how your saying it . In every other post your saying " SO YOU think its ok to KILL A BABY , its ok for a woman to KILL A baby , kill kill kill " But then when someone gets pissed off because they get offended that your calling a woman who has had an abortion a murderer you say " NO I did not say that" Yes you did. Just in a round about way you just wont stand behind that !

So call it what you want, see it how you want. MY STANCE IS THIS AND IT WILL NOT CHANGE !!! I do not agree with late term abortion . I DO HOWEVER Think the WOMAN has the right to chose what SHE DOES WITH HER BODY !

Its HER BODY ! If she CHOSES to give the baby up , its HER CHOICE , if she CHOSES to have the baby that's her CHOICE if she CHOSES to have an abortion that is HER CHOICE.

And DO NOT Come with me at some crap that "you must feel guilty for what you did " I will come una$$ed on someone for that crap !

Its a CHOICE !!! You have your opinion its your CHOICE to have it !

Mindy

[green 6]

See what all of you do not get is I do not see a fetus as a baby, one that can live on its own until 22-24 weeks. It can not sustain life on its own until then. Do I agree with late term abortions no i do not at all.

I am REALLY sick and tired of people saying " dead baby " chose to kill . SERIOUSLY !!! All of you who are such wonderful "Christians" need to think about what your saying and how your saying it . In every other post your saying " SO YOU think its ok to KILL A BABY , its ok for a woman to KILL A baby , kill kill kill " But then when someone gets pissed off because they get offended that your calling a woman who has had an abortion a murderer you say " NO I did not say that" Yes you did. Just in a round about way you just wont stand behind that !

So call it what you want, see it how you want. MY STANCE IS THIS AND IT WILL NOT CHANGE !!! I do not agree with late term abortion . I DO HOWEVER Think the WOMAN has the right to chose what SHE DOES WITH HER BODY !

Its HER BODY ! If she CHOSES to give the baby up , its HER CHOICE , if she CHOSES to have the baby that's her CHOICE if she CHOSES to have an abortion that is HER CHOICE.

And DO NOT Come with me at some crap that "you must feel guilty for what you did " I will come una$$ed on someone for that crap !

Its a CHOICE !!! You have your opinion its your CHOICE to have it !

Mindy

When I had my abortion, I had the option to go through with the pregnancy. My lover's ex-wife wanted to raise it and my lover, someone who really loves children, also was initially delighted that I was pregnant. He was anxious to marry me. It was me, however, who did not want it. I was filled with horror. You see, I really don't like babies, I don't like the way they smell or the way they look. I guess when they were handing out the uteri and boobs, they forgot to give me the maternal drive. Truth is, I am absolutely not maternal is all. This is why I was so careful taking care of birth control biz. I also did not want the pregnancy making alterations to the functioning of my body, changes that would never ever change back. I had seen what the legacy of our births had done to my own mum.

I was living in France at the time that I discovered that I was pregnant and I could have secured French citizenship for this child and free, state-paid medical care both pre and post natally. This was all part of France's active pro-birth policy. I received a booklet on this at the same time that I arranged for my abortion.

The abortion was a one-day affair and was not at all expensive although it was performed in the local hospital. When I awoke from a general anaesthetic I awoke to the worst menstrual cramps that I have ever had! and a feeling of utter relief!

Access to a safe and legal abortion certainly saved my bacon. I would have gone the risky illegal route if that was the only one open. This was because I was fighting a major depression and did not have the emotional strength to go through with this pregnancy. I have never felt any feelings of guilt since, by the way.

[coltonwade 27]

When I had my abortion, I had the option to go through with the pregnancy. My lover's ex-wife wanted to raise it and my lover, someone who really loves children, also was initially delighted that I was pregnant. He was anxious to marry me. It was me, however, who did not want it. I was filled with horror. You see, I really don't like babies, I don't like the way they smell or the way they look. I guess when they were handing out the uteri and boobs, they forgot to give me the maternal drive. Truth is, I am absolutely not maternal is all. This is why I was so careful taking care of birth control biz. I also did not want the pregnancy making alterations to the functioning of my body, changes that would never ever change back. I had seen what the legacy of our births had done to my own mum.

I was living in France at the time that I discovered that I was pregnant and I could have secured French citizenship for this child and free, state-paid medical care both pre and post natally. This was all part of France's active pro-birth policy. I received a booklet on this at the same time that I arranged for my abortion.

The abortion was a one-day affair and was not at all expensive although it was performed in the local hospital. When I awoke from a general anaesthetic I awoke to the worst menstrual cramps that I have ever had! and a feeling of utter relief!

Access to a safe and legal abortion certainly saved my bacon. I would have gone the risky illegal route if that was the only one open. This was because I was fighting a major depression and did not have the emotional strength to go through with this pregnancy. I have never felt any feelings of guilt since, by the way.

Green I have told you this before that I admire you for realizing that you do not want to have children and taking steps to not have them instead of being one of those people who know they are not or would not be a good mother and have them . I do not think everyone has to be a mother.

Or every woman woudl be a good mother, Geesh have you watched the news lately ?

I had my first son at 16 i can not take birth control due to Migraines but took other steps to make sure i would not get pregnant again . When i ended up pregnant at 19 after ending an abusive relationship I was not going to have a baby with someone who had just got done beating me so badly he put me in the hospital for days on end.

Nor did having 2 kids at age 19 and being a single mother look appealing to me. I knew if i had the baby the father would not have given it up for adoption.

I had the abortion it was the right thing for me to do under my circumstances at the time. When I say it still upsets me or bothers me , the circumstances around the abortion bothered me , I was upset that i got pregnant to begin with and upset that the circumstances did not allow me to have the baby ( DONT FREAKING TELL ME I COULD HAVE EITHER I wont listen to that shit from anyone now )

As a mother and a human being the abortion i think bothers people , it just does. It not an easy thing to do. I think people who do not agree with abortion think those of us who have them use them as birth control or that we think of them as the easy way out. its not the case for me at least.

I still do not regret the choice i made it was the right one . My life was hard enough bringing up my son alone it would have been nearly impossible or much much different with another one ! I do not regret it . you can have a choice bother you , upset you and it STILL be the right thing to do .

Mindy

[coltonwade 27]

OH green by the way my "dont tell me this or that " comments ect above where not directed at you i was just commenting cause your post made me think of my comments . LOL

Make sense ? LOL

Mindy

[pattygreen 5]

"I don't have any problem with birth contol as long as it doesn't kill the baby. For there are a few contraceptions that kill the fertilized egg and wash it out of the mother."

patty, what type of contraception is this???

The morning after pill is one. Also, After i had one of my children, and before I left the hospital, I agreed to having a depro privera shot. This shot is good for 3 months of protection against pregnancy. AFTER I already had the shot, I questioned the doc about how it controls births, and found out that if the sperm met the egg, and formed a baby, as it moved to the tubes, it would be come washed out of the cervix. Needless to say, that was the longest 3 months for both my husband and I, for we did not have sex for fear of killing a life that might have begun.

Edited February 22, 2009 by pattygreen