who supports right to choose

[Carrie_C 9]

Carrie, don't you find that contradictory? For to believe in God, is to believe in all that he stands for. Even Satan believes in God. But we all know where he ends up.

Do you believe that God exists, but you just don't agree with him on the issue of abortion?

I do believe that God exists. I believe that God loves all of us, regardless. I do not believe that every fertilized egg is intended to become a human. If that were true, there wouldn't be so many miscarriages. I read somewhere that most women have had miscarriages and not even known it. If you look at IVF, most of the embryos that are implanted in the uterus do not become babies. If every fertilized egg is supposed to become a human being, how do you explain those situations? I also haven't read anything in the Bible that says that every single fertilized is to become a human. If that is there, please tell me where. I believe that there are more christians who are prochoice than you realize.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Well, I for one believe that humans are by their nature split in their personalities; that it is possible for one's mate to cheat on one and yet love one dearly; that it is possible to for one to have an abortion and yet be respectful of life. It is this basic incoherency in the human character that psychologists spend their time in university studying.

As an example of this dichotomy: Hitler, the character who had all those Jews demonized and killed off in the most brutal fashion, was also a vegetarian and adored animals. Here was a man who was capable of being tender towards all animals and merciless towards all Jews. Go figure, eh.... He was also a christian, they say.

I kinda disagree about Hitler regarding animals. Truth is, he was not really a "critter" advocate, instead he became violently ill if he ate any kind of meat. He used that to show a more compassionate side of his creepy personality.

He wasn't a christian, he used christianity. It would be similar to an atheist running for office today, they would NEVER be elected no matter how much good they could do for the country. He'd still be an atheist. In public he recited xtianity, in private he demonized xtianity and told that xtians were stupid and illiterate. They were too dumb to see the obvious. He just used xtianity to get in office.

Hitler was evil through and through but he was not stupid. He knew how to get what he wanted and he did that quite well.

[green 6]

Thank, wasa, for clarifying this for me. I didn't know that his system didn't tolerate any animal nosh. And thanks, too, for clarifying his attitude towards Christians.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Thank, wasa, for clarifying this for me. I didn't know that his system didn't tolerate any animal nosh. And thanks, too, for clarifying his attitude towards Christians.

I have weird and bizarre interests. Hitler, A/A slavery, and old medical stuff. I have read just about everything I can get my hands on regarding all three topics. ;o) I collect antiquarian books on all three topics. I have many thousands of dollars worth of books on all the above topics. I told you, I have weird and bizarre interests. ;o)

Was Hitler a Christian?

The Straight Dope: Was Hitler a Christian?

Hitler's long time secretary published a book (I have a 1st edition copy). She kept a record of everything that came out of his mouth in private meetings and after he "died" she published the book. It is a verrrry interesting read and one that everyone should read. It puts many issues in their proper perspective, it answers so many questions and probably raises more questions than it answers. With that and much other research I suspect Hitler was Deist, not xtian and not atheist. Nobody will ever know for sure, all you can do is take all available info, digest it, and come up with what makes logical sense. For me that is deist.

He was absolutely not a xtian, no way. He hated xtianity and wanted to kill the pope of the day. He hated Catholics more than other versions of xtianity. He and the pope danced a dance that is hard to explain. They were both on to the other and knew what the other was up to yet they played the games anyway. Both knew the other was on to them yet they continued on as though neither knew a thing. It was beyond weird.

[Carrie_C 9]

By the way, has anyone read the new March issue of Glamour magazine? It talks about abortion and has several women who have had abortions sharing their stories. It is very interesting. I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but it says something about how like 70 something percent of women who've had abortions are christians.

[gadgetlady 4]

I do not believe that every fertilized egg is intended to become a human. If that were true, there wouldn't be so many miscarriages. I read somewhere that most women have had miscarriages and not even known it.

I don't think this has anything to do with God's view of the unborn. Lots of people die every day. Whether they're young or old, it doesn't mean that God doesn't love them or value their lives.

As a Christian (I'm assuming you are but I might be wrong -- you've said you believe in God but haven't said anything about Jesus that I recall), do you think Jesus was Jesus in the womb? How do you reconcile the Scripture that talks about how John the Baptist leaped in Elizabeth's womb when Mary, pregnant with Jesus, entered the room? Was John the Baptist still John the Baptist in utero, or did he only become a person when be was born? And if he was a person because he was past viability (again, I can't pinpoint from prior posts exactly when you think the unborn becomes a person, so correct me if I'm wrong about your beliefs here), what was Jesus at that time? He was certainly pre-viability, so how was He still an entity that John would leap at if he wasn't a person? Was Jesus, or even John for that matter, a unique person in His own right from the moment of conception, or did He only become a person after a certain stage of pregnancy?

BTW, I'd love to hear perspectives about this question from any Christians who are in favor of abortion, not just Carrie.

[gadgetlady 4]

it says something about how like 70 something percent of women who've had abortions are christians.

I think that number is a bit high according to other studies I've seen, but I'm not surprised AT ALL that it's high in general. The church has historically been horrible in its treatment of single women who are pregnant. I think in a lot of places that has changed or is still changing, but it's just despicable how the church used to treat young women in crisis situations.

As I said, I think that tide has turned or is turning (in some parts of the country more so than others) and I, for one, am happy to see it.

I had a friend in college who got pregnant our freshman year (1985). She asked me to drive her for her abortion. I think it was a serious cry for help because she knew how pro-life I was. After my entrance into the situation, she carried the baby to term and placed him for adoption, but she did so away from the college. She returned to her parents' home town, but they didn't want the stigma of having her live with them, so she lived with a Catholic Charities' family until she delivered. I remember even then how appalled I was that her family basically "disowned" her and made her live with strangers (fewer than 5 miles from her house) so they didn't have to deal with gossip.

My daughters know unequivocally that they will never be judged by me or my husband for being pregnant out of wedlock (they also know they shouldn't put themselves in a situation where that might happen, but that's another story). I make it a practice to support facilities that take in unwed mothers, and I will help any young mother I can with unconditional love and acceptance -- and my girls have seen me do it, not just talk about it. It is never our place to judge, because we've all made mistakes. Christians who judge young mothers in crisis situations need to get the planks out of their eyes.

[Carrie_C 9]

Gadget, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are asking. That post is very confusing. Jesus was God in the flesh. That was a totally different situation. Jesus wasn't a combination of sperm and egg. He wasn't conceived.

[pattygreen 5]

You really can't comprehend that millions of people believe in a woman's right to choose?

No, I don't believe there are millions of people who believe in God and abortion both. I know there are millions of people who believe in abortion.

You really believe that there are clergy who have not read the Bible? You have a problem with the term "clergy"? Why?

I do beieve there are clergy who have not read the bible. I don't want to offend anyones denomination, but I want to say that at one time I was considered catholic. I was taught by nuns and the priest of our church many things that I did not find out were untrue until I was older and actually read the bible for the first time all the way through. After reading God's words, I was appalled at the lies I was taught. These people were church leaders, (clergy) and they never read the bible. I guess that I have a personal issue with the 'clergy' you might say.

You really think you're the only person with a direct line to God's mind?

Absolutely not. Anyone who reads what he wants so badly to tell us can know the mind of God.

What you're saying is that "...you shouldn't say that you believe in God and then do the things he hates or tells you not to do." But what you really mean is that you shouldn't say that you believe in God and do the things that I'VE said he hates and tells you not to do.

No, I would never tell you what to do. But I don't mind telling you what God would like you to know from his word.

We can read and interpret just as well as you can. Just because we do not interpret God's word to mean the same things that you do, doesn't mean we are wrong. It might just mean that YOU are wrong.

I am not a perfect person. There may be a 'few' gray areas in scripture, but there is much, much more that is black and white. In other words, If God comes right out and says This or That is wrong, how can you debate that?

What's next? Do we start quoting scripture here? Line for line, head to head?

Only if you want to.

[pattygreen 5]

I do believe that God exists. I believe that God loves all of us, regardless. I do not believe that every fertilized egg is intended to become a human. If that were true, there wouldn't be so many miscarriages. I read somewhere that most women have had miscarriages and not even known it. If you look at IVF, most of the embryos that are implanted in the uterus do not become babies. If every fertilized egg is supposed to become a human being, how do you explain those situations? I also haven't read anything in the Bible that says that every single fertilized is to become a human. If that is there, please tell me where. I believe that there are more christians who are prochoice than you realize.

Carrie, I believe that for God, the creator of every baby, to choose to bring his child home to heaven with him before it is born through a miscarriage is far different than someone else making that choice for him through an abortion. Doesn't the potter have the right to do as he chooses with his clay? Mother's do not own their children. God loans them to us for a time to train them up in the way that they should go. Every fertilized egg does become a human and at the second of conception God places a soul within each fetus. When children die, whether inside the womb or outside the womb, they go straight to be with God who made them.

[gadgetlady 4]

Gadget, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are asking. That post is very confusing. Jesus was God in the flesh. That was a totally different situation. Jesus wasn't a combination of sperm and egg. He wasn't conceived.

OK, forget Jesus in the womb. What about John the Baptist leaping in the womb when he was in the presence of Jesus in the womb. Was John the Baptist a person at that time? Would God have cared if Elizabeth had aborted him? Did God have a plan for his life even though he was not yet born?

[pattygreen 5]

I don't think that Hitler was a christian. He had nothing but murder and hatred in his heart for God's chosen people, the Jewish nation. The bible teaches that those who love, and are friends with and pray for Israel, He will love and protect.

[gadgetlady 4]

Second question, speaking as a Christian only: When does a human being have a soul? I realize this is 100% inconsequential for people who aren't Christians, so I am only speaking to those who believe in God and are also in favor of abortion.

[BJean 16]

Ready to bail yet Carrie? I sure am. Maybe they can talk amongst themselves. They don't accept anything we tell them.

[gadgetlady 4]

I don't think that Hitler was a christian.

He wasn't. He is still widely touted as one by people who have heard it from others, but he actually practiced mysticism and had disdain for Christians.