who supports right to choose

[coltonwade 27]

Mine too!

Leave it to PG to go completely off topic, sigh. Again, judge not lest YOU be judged.

Well said !

Mindy

[green 6]

After reading all the last postings, all I can say is.... All the more reason for God's rule of getting married before sex. God created the sexual experience for MEN and WOMEN to procreate children within the marriage covenant to make a family together and for love and enjoyment between a husband and wife. He didn't plan it for prostitutes, abortions, homosexuals, pedifiles or pornography. Hard words, I know. But truthful.

But, Pattygreen, the truth is I don't like children, I positively hate babies, I have a narrow pelvis (my doctor told me so), and I find pregnancy's effects on the body to be terrifying. I do like sex, however. This would mean that married sex would be not one of God's options to me for, if my birth control method screwed up again,....I would be hunting down an abortionist. Your God doesn't have all the answers, I see.

[green 6]

I have had 2 children and I definitely have a phobia about pregnancy and childbirth! And for darned good reason. I had all of the negative side effects green mentioned and more. And have had to deal with many post birth problems caused by bearing my children. You see my body was just not made for child bearing. Yeah, I'm a woman, but have a very short wheel base and an extremely narrow pelvis. My doctors pitied me. I learned the eff word real quick.

So, it sounds like Pattygreen's God f88ked up when he made ya, eh? You have Green's condolences. (My doc told me that I had a small pelvis and that childbirth would have been difficult for me - not that I put her words to the test. Thank God they had legalized abortions in France which is where I had mine.)

[Carrie_C 9]

I am prochoice but what that abortion doc did down in miami was wrong that baby lived and breathed for several minutes...its on cnn I don't have the link.

Was this recent?

[Carrie_C 9]

After reading all the last postings, all I can say is.... All the more reason for God's rule of getting married before sex. God created the sexual experience for MEN and WOMEN to procreate children within the marriage covenant to make a family together and for love and enjoyment between a husband and wife. He didn't plan it for prostitutes, abortions, homosexuals, pedifiles or pornography. Hard words, I know. But truthful.

I get sick and tired of people saying that the only reason to get married is to have children. That is stupid. I have been married for almost 4 years and I do not have any children, nor do I want them. I got married because I loved my husband and because I wanted a life partner to share things with. I was tired of being single and doing everything on my own. I wanted to be with someone I loved and who loved me. I have never wanted children. And to be honest, if I were to get pregnant now, I can't honestly say that I would not have an abortion, because I don't know, I feel very strongly against having kids and I always have. I like babies and kids, as long as they are someone else's. I was 18 when my brother was born, and I helped raise him. I have nothing agianst children, I just don't want to be responsible for them and I sure don't want to go through childbirth. I watched my sister do that, and that was enough. But sometimes when I tell people I don't want kids, they will say "then why did you get married?" I hate that. In fact, I believe it is wrong if the only reason someone is getting married is to have kids. I believe it is true that more married women have abortions than single women. Just because women get married does not automatically make us want to be mothers. I am happy with things just the way they are and I see nothing wrong with that.

[green 6]

I get sick and tired of people saying that the only reason to get married is to have children. That is stupid. I have been married for almost 4 years and I do not have any children, nor do I want them. I got married because I loved my husband and because I wanted a life partner to share things with. I was tired of being single and doing everything on my own. I wanted to be with someone I loved and who loved me. I have never wanted children. And to be honest, if I were to get pregnant now, I can't honestly say that I would not have an abortion, because I don't know, I feel very strongly against having kids and I always have. I like babies and kids, as long as they are someone else's. I was 18 when my brother was born, and I helped raise him. I have nothing agianst children, I just don't want to be responsible for them and I sure don't want to go through childbirth. I watched my sister do that, and that was enough. But sometimes when I tell people I don't want kids, they will say "then why did you get married?" I hate that. In fact, I believe it is wrong if the only reason someone is getting married is to have kids. I believe it is true that more married women have abortions than single women. Just because women get married does not automatically make us want to be mothers. I am happy with things just the way they are and I see nothing wrong with that.

I must say that I agree with you. I have never regretted not having had children, nor having had the one abortion. I have also received some flack about not having kids. My mother was disappointed by the choice I had made and the guys with whom I worked at my job building aircraft felt that my decision was pretty weird for a "straight" chick. All straight chicks are supposed to want kids, you see. But the issue of a desire to have kids has little to do with sexual orientation, I have found. I have met many lesbians and gay men who would love to be parents.

I find the noise, mess and chaos that small children import into one's life to be utterly horrifying and I find that they themselves are very boring. They don't share any of my hobbies, you see, which are lying around in bed, reading, shopping, discussing the economy, religion or the effects of one's genetic inheritance. They prefer the Care Bears and I prefer the I-dpn't-Care-Bears, and both irony and sarcasm are lost on them. I do like their art work, however, but fortunately, I have found that many proud parents are happy to share their children's art works with an admiring adult.

As for Carrie, I can only imagine the pressure that you go through.... Fortunately for me that ship has long since sailed due to an early on-set menopause.

[pattygreen 5]

I was going to stay out of this discussion but ....

Let me let you in on a secret. Something i did not even consider until I saw it . When I went for my abortion , I was 18 already had a 2 yr old ( yes that's right I had a baby at 16 and was not going to have another one by an abusive SOB ) I could not and still cant take the pill due to Migraines .

Anyway , There were MORE MARRIED WOMAN In the abortion clinic than SINGLE woman !!! Just because people are married does not mean unplanned pregnancies do not happen and people do not make mistakes or birth control does not fail,people feel they cant afford the babies and feel its best to have the abortion . But to think that just because 2 people are married that they wont or dont have abortions is naive . God did not plan for ALOT OF things , does not mean its right or WRONG ! Im sick of people throwing GOD into the mix when things dont fit into their "PLAN" and just call it WRONG .

I dont know what the HELL Prositutes, homosexuals and what ever else was in that last sentance has to do w/this topic , but it wasnt needed !

Mindy

I understand that married women have abortions too. But more times than not, if you are married when you get pregnant you accept the 'oops' and have a baby. My point was to say that God does not allow sex outside of marriage, and if more people would be obedient to that, then we wouldn't have so many problems.

[pattygreen 5]

Mine too!

Leave it to PG to go completely off topic, sigh. Again, judge not lest YOU be judged.

How is that off topic? Sex=pregnancy=abortion

[coltonwade 27]

I understand that married women have abortions too. But more times than not, if you are married when you get pregnant you accept the 'oops' and have a baby. My point was to say that God does not allow sex outside of marriage, and if more people would be obedient to that, then we wouldn't have so many problems.

Well see that is YOUR opinion ! And YOUR belief !

Does not make it right does not make it wrong it makes it YOURS !!!

Mindy

[coltonwade 27]

I must say that I agree with you. I have never regretted not having had children, nor having had the one abortion. I have also received some flack about not having kids. My mother was disappointed by the choice I had made and the guys with whom I worked at my job building aircraft felt that my decision was pretty weird for a "straight" chick. All straight chicks are supposed to want kids, you see. But the issue of a desire to have kids has little to do with sexual orientation, I have found. I have met many lesbians and gay men who would love to be parents.

I find the noise, mess and chaos that small children import into one's life to be utterly horrifying and I find that they themselves are very boring. They don't share any of my hobbies, you see, which are lying around in bed, reading, shopping, discussing the economy, religion or the effects of one's genetic inheritance. They prefer the Care Bears and I prefer the I-dpn't-Care-Bears, and both irony and sarcasm are lost on them. I do like their art work, however, but fortunately, I have found that many proud parents are happy to share their children's art works with an admiring adult.

As for Carrie, I can only imagine the pressure that you go through.... Fortunately for me that ship has long since sailed due to an early on-set menopause.

I would much rather someone say " Hey look children is not for me , I dont care for them, im not the motherly type, ect "than to have them and not care for them properly . I dont think woman or men for that matter have to get married to have children . I dont think men and woman have to get married period !

Why does a woman HAVE TO have a child ? Its ridicoulous ?

Stand your ground girls !!! BE proud of who you are and what you stand for there is NOTHING WRONG WITH IT !

Mindy

[Carrie_C 9]

I don't know why it is expected that women have to have children. I think that is one reason why so many kids are abused. They weren't wanted in the first place, but the women had them because they felt like they had to. Society makes you look like less of a woman if you don't have kids.

[BJean 16]

I have had a very good friend for 8 years who is married and does not have children. She is in her 50s and she's had a hysterectomy so having children is not an option for her. I have never asked her why she didn't have children. She's never volunteered the information so I figured that she wasn't interested in discussing it. It's absolutely none of my business.

And I gotta tell you, she has a wonderful life with her husband of 30 years. They have travelled the world and are completely supportive of each other in whatever they choose to do. They play golf as often as they can. They go skiing at least one every winter. They have a fabulous home, beautifully decorated. She is a great gardner and seamstress. She is totally fulfilled and quite content. And is constantly doing nice things for other people.

Who would accuse them of being disobedient to God for choosing this lifestyle? They got married. They are a family of 2. They are complete. Whether they chose not to have children, or nature did that for them, I honestly do not believe that God would accuse them of being disobedient, even if at some point in their marriage she chose to have an abortion.

[gadgetlady 4]

I am prochoice but what that abortion doc did down in miami was wrong that baby lived and breathed for several minutes...its on cnn I don't have the link.

Here's a link for you:

Doctor investigated in botched abortion - Crime & courts- msnbc.com

Doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

Woman waiting for procedure gives birth; baby placed in bag, thrown out

TAMPA, Fla. - Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.

Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise readied for the procedure.

Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.

What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

Police recovered the decomposing remains in a cardboard box a week later after getting anonymous tips.

"I don't care what your politics are, what your morals are, this should not be happening in our community," said Tom Pennekamp, a Miami attorney representing Williams in her lawsuit against Renelique and the clinic owners.

Hearings and allegations

The state Board of Medicine is to hear Renelique's case in Tampa on Friday and determine whether to strip his license. The state attorney's homicide division is investigating, though no charges have been filed. Terry Chavez, a spokeswoman with the Miami-Dade County State Attorney's Office, said this week that prosecutors were nearing a decision.

Renelique's attorney, Joseph Harrison, called the allegations at best "misguided and incomplete" in an e-mail to The Associated Press. He didn't provide details.

The case has riled the anti-abortion community, which contends the clinic's actions constitute murder.

"The baby was just treated as a piece of garbage," said Tom Brejcha, president of The Thomas More Society, a law firm that is also representing Williams. "People all over the country are just aghast."

Those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations.

"It really disturbed me," said Joanne Sterner, president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for Women, after reviewing the administrative complaint against Renelique. "I know that there are clinics out there like this. And I hope that we can keep (women) from going to these types of clinics."

Malpractice payments

According to state records, Renelique received his medical training at the State University of Haiti. In 1991, he completed a four-year residency in obstetrics and gynecology at Interfaith Medical Center in New York.

New York records show that Renelique has made at least five medical malpractice payments in the past decade, the circumstances of which were not detailed in the filings.

Several attempts to reach Renelique were unsuccessful. Some of his office numbers were disconnected, no home number could be found and he did not return messages left with his attorney.

Williams struggled with the decision to have an abortion, Pennekamp said. She declined an interview request made through him.

She concluded she didn't have the resources or maturity to raise a child, he said, and went to the Miramar Women's Center on July 17, 2006. Sonograms indicated she was 23 weeks pregnant, according to the Department of Health. She met Renelique at a second clinic two days later.

Renelique gave Williams laminaria, a drug that dilates the cervix, and prescribed three other medications, according to the administrative complaint filed by the Health Department. She was told to go to yet another clinic, A Gyn Diagnostic Center in Hialeah, where the procedure would be performed the next day, on July 20, 2006.

Williams arrived in the morning and was given more medication.

The Department of Health account continues as follows: Just before noon she began to feel ill. The clinic contacted Renelique. Two hours later, he still hadn't shown up. Williams went into labor and delivered the baby.

"She came face to face with a human being," Pennekamp said. "And that changed everything."

Investigation under way

The complaint says one of the clinic owners, Belkis Gonzalez came in and cut the umbilical cord with scissors, then placed the baby in a plastic bag, and the bag in a trash can.

Williams' lawsuit offers a cruder account: She says Gonzalez knocked the baby off the recliner chair where she had given birth, onto the floor. The baby's umbilical cord was not clamped, allowing her to bleed out. Gonzalez scooped the baby, placenta and afterbirth into a red plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

No working telephone number could be found for Gonzalez, and an attorney who has represented the clinic in the past did not return a message.

At 23 weeks, an otherwise healthy fetus would have a slim but legitimate chance of survival. Quadruplets born at 23 weeks last year at The Nebraska Medical Center survived.

An autopsy determined Williams' baby — she named her Shanice — had filled her lungs with air, meaning she had been born alive, according to the Department of Health. The cause of death was listed as extreme prematurity.

The Department of Health believes Renelique committed malpractice by failing to ensure that licensed personnel would be present when Williams was there, among other missteps.

The department wants the Board of Medicine, a separate agency, to permanently revoke Renelique's license, among other penalties. His license is currently restricted, permitting him to only perform abortions when another licensed physician is present and can review his medical records.

Should prosecutors file murder charges, they'd have to prove the baby was born alive, said Robert Batey, a professor of criminal law at Stetson University College of Law in Gulfport. The defense might contend that the child would have died anyway, but most courts would not allow that argument, he said.

"Hastening the death of an individual who is terminally ill is still considered causing the death of that individual," Batey said. "And I think a court would rule similarly in this type of case."

[gadgetlady 4]

And here are my comments about it; when I read the story, I was so incensed I had to get it out on paper:

A pregnant mother went into an abortion clinic to abort her baby; she left alive and the baby left dead. What’s everyone so riled up about? And yet, they are.

You see, this particular 23-week old “fetus” had the audacity to breathe (and, most likely, cry). And the clinic worker had the audacity to put her in a plastic bag and throw her away. But wait: isn’t that what they always do?

MSBNC claims that “The case has riled the anti-abortion community, which contends the clinic's actions constitute murder.” Newsflash: as a long-time member of the “anti-abortion community”, this doesn’t “rile” me any more than had the baby been successfully aborted without all the drama. The result is 100%, nay 150%, the same. The fact that someone had to stare a live baby in the eye and shove her into a biohazard bag only serves to shed light on what is normally done in the secret, broad-daylight, well-advertised, well-funded, industry that likes to use such euphemisms as “choice” for their brutal attacks on helpless human beings – and “courageous” for the killers they employ. Now that’s real audacity.

"It really disturbed me," said Joanne Sterner, president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for Women, after reviewing the administrative complaint against Renelique. "I know that there are clinics out there like this. And I hope that we can keep (women) from going to these types of clinics." I’ve got news for you, Joanne. “These types of clinics” are simply the regular old, plain old, strip-mall and freestanding abort-o-rama clinics that are seen nationwide. It’s a death business, so we shouldn’t be surprised when death is the result.

I wonder, quite often actually, about the minds of the pro-aborts. Here’s a baby who was slated for death and received it. I don’t understand the problem. Why is it OK to use any number of killing methods so long as the baby is still wholly or partially a resident of the womb, but as soon as the baby passes through the magical vaginal canal, she is suddenly entitled the protective rights shared by the rest of us post-born human beings. Why the hell does the president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for SOME Women give a flying leap? Oh, oh, I know! Because it makes the news when someone does something like this. That “something like this”, of course, being the same “something” they do every day in that clinic and abortion clinics around the nation and the world, but of course without the “staring in the [live] face” part.

And to all of those who claim abortions are rarely done on viable babies, maybe this story will help you to understand that it isn’t all happy-faced, clean, clinical work – just because it doesn’t make the news daily doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen daily.

[pattygreen 5]

Well see that is YOUR opinion ! And YOUR belief !

Does not make it right does not make it wrong it makes it YOURS !!!

Mindy

Testy! You're right. It is my opinion. Isn't that what we're supposed to give on this debate forum? You, too, have a right to give your opinion.

Whenever someone says it is what God has to say on an issue, tempers flare. I wonder why? Could it be that you know He's right and it angers you because you don't like anyone telling you how to live, even God?