KEVORKIAN to be freed June 1 07!!!!!

[Carlene 12]

But what are your sources that he helped people off themselves when they were not terminally ill and merely depressed? I don't believe I ever recall hearing credible sources for this.

I read the same thing in Wiki (not a credible source, IMHO). There are many sides to this issue. Dr K was always a little on the edge, from what I can find out, and I'm not entirely comfy with some of his "stunts". On the other hand, consider Percy Bridgman, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist who, at 79, was entering the final stages of terminal cancer. Wracked with pain and bereft of hope, he got a gun and somehow found courage to pull the trigger, knowing he was condemning others to the agony of discovering his bloody remains. His final note said simply: "It is not decent for society to make a man do this to himself. Probably this is the last day I will be able to do it myself."

I have to agree with Dr. Bridgman, and if Jack Kevorkian is the only one on that particular bandwagon, then I'm with him, too.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I read the same thing in Wiki (not a credible source, IMHO). There are many sides to this issue. Dr K was always a little on the edge, from what I can find out, and I'm not entirely comfy with some of his "stunts". On the other hand, consider Percy Bridgman, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist who, at 79, was entering the final stages of terminal cancer. Wracked with pain and bereft of hope, he got a gun and somehow found courage to pull the trigger, knowing he was condemning others to the agony of discovering his bloody remains. His final note said simply: "It is not decent for society to make a man do this to himself. Probably this is the last day I will be able to do it myself."

I have to agree with Dr. Bridgman, and if Jack Kevorkian is the only one on that particular bandwagon, then I'm with him, too.

While I fully respect Dr. K's stand on the issue you are right, he wasn't exactly playing with a full deck. Remember when he went to his trial dressed as Star Trek person? He IS nuts, but even nutty people get it right sometimes.

I would have much preferred another person take the stance he did but the reality is, Dr. K did it.

I agree, Wiki isn't credible. If people knew who was writing those articles they would understand. It's a decent source to start with, but ever checked out atheism on Wiki? HA! Clearly, an uninformed xtian wrote that one.

[babygrl1234 6]

I hate to have to bring this up because I do agree with what Dr. K did for those who needed it. It was found out after the fact that there were a few of his patients that were extremly depressed but autopsies showed they were not terminally ill. They were just severly depressed and wanted to end it all. I guess the biggest question would be did these people come to Dr. K and lie to him about being ill or did Dr. K lie about them being ill.

While I do not agree with him helping depressed people to off themselves I definitely agree with his helping those terminally ill patients who were ready to go.

I probably should have inlcuded a disclaimer of I remember hearing about blah blah blah. Or worded myself differently lol. Since I live near Detroit Dr. K was obviously all over the news constantly back then. Hearing something doesn't make it true and it has been a long time since the trials and such. Here is link from the Detoit Free Press with some onfo on people. Though these people may have had conditions they may not have been deemed terminal at the time of their death. The info on them is at the end of the article.

1996: Kevorkian charged again

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I probably should have inlcuded a disclaimer of I remember hearing about blah blah blah. Or worded myself differently lol. Since I live near Detroit Dr. K was obviously all over the news constantly back then. Hearing something doesn't make it true and it has been a long time since the trials and such. Here is link from the Detoit Free Press with some onfo on people. Though these people may have had conditions they may not have been deemed terminal at the time of their death. The info on them is at the end of the article.

1996: Kevorkian charged again

Let's look at these examples for a moment just to show "quality" journalism:

>>In the months before she died, Hamilton felt herself weakening and feared she might have to move into a nursing home. At the time of her death, her condition was not terminal.<<

The article even spells the name of her condition wrong. They obviously had no clue what they were talking about.

>>* Shirley Cline, 63, of Oceanside, Calif., died July 4 after contacting Kevorkian via the Internet. Cline was a media specialist for the Beverly Hills, Calif., Unified School District. In July 1992, she was diagnosed with bowel cancer and was told by her doctors that it was incurable. It gradually spread to other organs, but was not terminal at the time of her death.<<

Cancer spread to other organs. Organs as is multiple. Which two or more organs do we not need for survival? Ever see someone "not" suffer from colon cancer after it has spread? I haven't. I rarely see anyone survive colon cancer after it has spread. There is a huge blood supply that goes right from the colon to the liver and once it hits the liver (colon cancer's favorite organ to spread to) life is no fun at all and it most certainly is terminal. But I want to know something, according to which source was this patient's colon cancer not terminal? Clearly you didn't write the article so I'm not asking you but this level of journalism is simply revolting.

>>* Rebecca Badger, 39, of Goleta, Calif., died July 9. She and her doctors believed that she was suffering from multiple sclerosis, but an autopsy showed that the diagnosis was incorrect.<<

What doctors claimed MS was a misdiagnosis? If her problem wasn't MS then what was wrong with her? Was she hit by a truck right before she off'ed herself or did she have a hangnail? More low level journalism. Just enough information to make someone look really bad but nothing to back up their silly claims.

>>A Hungarian immigrant who moved to the United States when she was 18, Mercz was divorced twice, but managed to work and raise her three children. In the year before her death, she was distraught over having lost her job. In July, Mercz unsuccessfully attempted suicide at home by taking an overdose of pills with the help of a relative. Frustrated by that experience, she sought Kevorkian's help. When Mercz died, her condition was not terminal.<<

Total crap. Lou Gehrigs disease is ALWAYS terminal. More yellow journalism.

I'm not even going to continue down the list. The above demonstrates my point.

This is an author with an agenda.

Show me some facts. :girl_hug:

[babygrl1234 6]

Bubble I am not trying to argue I was just trying to say that there is a possibility that not everyone was terminal. Yes maybe there are just rumors and maybe they are true. It doesn't make a difference for me really as I completely agree with what Dr. K did for those people who were terminally ill and in horrible pain.

As for the source all you can really find on the guy are people opinions one way or another. But if you google Rebecca Badger it says that her autopsy showed no sign of MS. There were many articles on that. Maybe she was in pain or maybe she was depressed or hell maybe she just wanted some attention.

[tink128 0]

BJEAN my heart cries for what you have been through and I thank God that your MIL had someone like you to be a such a great advocate for her care. As far as your ? about what God would want for her. Well, His word tells us that He longs for a relationship with us and sometimes people must go thru a tremendous amount of suffering in order to turn towards Him. I know that may not be the answer you want but it is the answer He gives us. God would never encourage someone to take their own life under any circumstance however I am not the one to judge whether if someone did they would not go to heaven. Alot of poeple are not even concerned about their afterlife nor do they believe in one. I guess that belief would have a tremendous impact on this subject and your reason for supporting euthanasia. I do agree with alot of the supportersar that even doctors sometimes play "God". If we just left God to His own job euthanansia would not even be necessary. Because people would die when they are supposed and not be sustained artificially and then neither side would be accused of playing GOD. That is why I urge everyone to put your wishes in writing!

[BJean 16]

TinK: Thanks for your kind sentiments. Admittedly it has been rough to go through the deaths of my dad, my mother and my sister, and to now watch my MIL deteriorate. I agree with much of what you said.

I didn't actually say that I am a big proponent of euthanasia. I agree that people should make their wishes known as well as they can and that we should all have a Living Will and a DNR if we believe that we do not wish to be kept alive artificially when there is no hope for recovery.

I do have a big problem with keeping people alive like they kept my Dad alive. My MIL may still have the ability to fight back from her current problems. Having her doctor treat her with less than total respect is very hard to take, though. Aging people are not attractive, by society's standards and they have a hard time standing up for themselves, especially when they are sick. And they are discriminated against everywhere, just as fat people are.

When there is a person who is in the hospital or a nursing home and the person is in relentless pain, with no chance of eventual recovery, I believe it is inhumane to keep them alive artificially. I cannot believe that my God would want that for any of us, despite passages in the Bible that may indicate otherwise.

Putting it in writing does not assure the patient or the family that their wishes will always be respected, as proved in the case of my Dad. Some compassion must be felt for them by the people attending to their care. The fact is, as several who have posted here say, many health care professionals do have compassion and will not allow a patient to die a horrible, painful, long-drawn out death.

Some of the medical profession cannot be trusted to put the patient first, however. That's why we need to make this a political issue. It's something most of us will have to deal with in our lifetime, either by ourselves or through someone we love. If God were here in person, talking responsibility for each and every human being and making a judgment call for each human being at these critical times, then I would say that we should turn it over to him. But he isn't here physically except in our minds and in our hearts, and we are only fallible human beings.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Some of the medical profession cannot be trusted to put the patient first, however. That's why we need to make this a political issue. It's something most of us will have to deal with in our lifetime, either by ourselves or through someone we love. If God were here in person, talking responsibility for each and every human being and making a judgment call for each human being at these critical times, then I would say that we should turn it over to him. But he isn't here physically except in our minds and in our hearts, and we are only fallible human beings.

Very true. If you have someone like your Dad and he made his wishes clear and it goes against the doc's religion or ethics or personal agenda... whatever the case may be, we have a problem. We have someone else inflicting their own views on another and when it comes to a person's own body, that just can't happen.

The reality is that we have health care professionals agreeing to a patient's request. Is it right? Is it the way it should be? It doesn't really matter. The reality is still there, health care professionals are doing it. No way around that. So let's bring it out in the open, discuss it rationally, and put some guidelines on there. It IS happening and it will continue to happen. So let's make some rules and regulations, let's get lots of people involved. Let's get social workers involved to make sure that the family isn't pressuring a patient to off themselves or not off themselves but instead, do what the patient really wants to do. Let's get mental health professionals involved to make sure the decision is made by a rational adult capable of such decisions. Let's get clergy in there if the patient wants them to be a part of this. Let's get a couple of docs do offer 2nd and 3rd opinions to make sure everything really has been done to cure the original illness. Let's get pain management specialists in there to ensure there really is nothing more that *can* be done to get the patient out of pain.

I had a patient once that was a little old Catholic lady. This lady probably never said "shit" in her life, she wouldn't say the word if she had a mouth full of the stuff. Yet in the end when she was in pain and we couldn't manage her pain (I don't give a rats back side what someone says, not all pain can be managed) she begged me to give her something to end her life. I declined. She offered me her wedding ring, the only thing she had of value to trade for anything to end her pain once and for all. I declined.

From that point on each time I would go to her room she wouldn't move a muscle but her eyes would follow me the entire time and she would just glare at me. As I walked around her room her eyes followed me with intense hate. The only time she spoke to me again was to wish upon me the same death she was experiencing.

I learned a lot from that lady. I was young and didn't really know how to approach her or even talk to her. I'll tell you one thing, I quickly learned to approach people and discuss these issues.

Not so long ago I had a family of three daughters that approached me and asked me to end it for their father. He was in horrific pain and pain management simply wasn't working. We were giving this guy enough drugs to kill 4 horses yet he was in agony. Nothing we did relieved his pain. His three daughters insisted I end his suffering by killing him.

WTH? Why is this my job? I didn't go into medicine to kill people. Why is it on my shoulders? Why didn't THEY do the big and dirty deed? Why would any family member feel it is the duty of any nurse to kill their family member? If it isn't easy for them to do, why in the world should it be easier for me to do?? Do people think? Ever?

Instead of putting people (patients, family, medical staff) through this why are we not addressing these issues? Ignoring them is like pretending kids won't get preggers if we simply don't tell them about sex. It doesn't work. These issues need to be brought out in the open and discussed, guidelines need to be made and rules need to be followed. Instead we have people that are agreeing to things that they believe are in the patient's best interest as well as what the patient wants. We need more people involved in these decisions. No way around it.

[green 6]

Very true. If you have someone like your Dad and he made his wishes clear and it goes against the doc's religion or ethics or personal agenda... whatever the case may be, we have a problem. We have someone else inflicting their own views on another and when it comes to a person's own body, that just can't happen.

The reality is that we have health care professionals agreeing to a patient's request. Is it right? Is it the way it should be? It doesn't really matter. The reality is still there, health care professionals are doing it. No way around that. So let's bring it out in the open, discuss it rationally, and put some guidelines on there. It IS happening and it will continue to happen. So let's make some rules and regulations, let's get lots of people involved. Let's get social workers involved to make sure that the family isn't pressuring a patient to off themselves or not off themselves but instead, do what the patient really wants to do. Let's get mental health professionals involved to make sure the decision is made by a rational adult capable of such decisions. Let's get clergy in there if the patient wants them to be a part of this. Let's get a couple of docs do offer 2nd and 3rd opinions to make sure everything really has been done to cure the original illness. Let's get pain management specialists in there to ensure there really is nothing more that *can* be done to get the patient out of pain.

I had a patient once that was a little old Catholic lady. This lady probably never said "shit" in her life, she wouldn't say the word if she had a mouth full of the stuff. Yet in the end when she was in pain and we couldn't manage her pain (I don't give a rats back side what someone says, not all pain can be managed) she begged me to give her something to end her life. I declined. She offered me her wedding ring, the only thing she had of value to trade for anything to end her pain once and for all. I declined.

From that point on each time I would go to her room she wouldn't move a muscle but her eyes would follow me the entire time and she would just glare at me. As I walked around her room her eyes followed me with intense hate. The only time she spoke to me again was to wish upon me the same death she was experiencing.

I learned a lot from that lady. I was young and didn't really know how to approach her or even talk to her. I'll tell you one thing, I quickly learned to approach people and discuss these issues.

Not so long ago I had a family of three daughters that approached me and asked me to end it for their father. He was in horrific pain and pain management simply wasn't working. We were giving this guy enough drugs to kill 4 horses yet he was in agony. Nothing we did relieved his pain. His three daughters insisted I end his suffering by killing him.

WTH? Why is this my job? I didn't go into medicine to kill people. Why is it on my shoulders? Why didn't THEY do the big and dirty deed? Why would any family member feel it is the duty of any nurse to kill their family member? If it isn't easy for them to do, why in the world should it be easier for me to do?? Do people think? Ever?

Instead of putting people (patients, family, medical staff) through this why are we not addressing these issues? Ignoring them is like pretending kids won't get preggers if we simply don't tell them about sex. It doesn't work. These issues need to be brought out in the open and discussed, guidelines need to be made and rules need to be followed. Instead we have people that are agreeing to things that they believe are in the patient's best interest as well as what the patient wants. We need more people involved in these decisions. No way around it.

This is a very powerful post from an insider in the business of health care and this is why I have troubled to quote this post as a preface to my own remarks on this subject.

It strikes me that each one of those individuals who is on the front lines of health care imports his or her own personal sense of ethics and this is challenged on a routine basis as part of the job. This must be a particularly stressful environment in which to function.

Bubble has described her experience as a newbie of dealing with an elderly woman whose pain was so insupportable that she was prepared to offer up her wedding ring, if that was what it took, in order to be helped out of her misery. That the patient was Catholic and that the church has a strict caveat against suicide made this woman's request all the more powerful, and her pain all the more dreadful to imagine.

One of my father's European pals was a doctor who ended up immigrating to Canada. I remember overhearing him talking to my parents about the treatment which he customarily arranged for the new borns of his patients, those new borns, that is, who were grossly ill-favoured to live. He told my parents that he had the nurses put 'em on an intravenous Water and sugar solution. This meant that there were no attempts to keep these ruined creatures alive. The Water and sugar solution would not sustain life but would keep them hydrated and allow them to drift gently off into death. He certainly figured that this was a kindness to everyone concerned and it seems obvious that the nurses were compliant if not in agreement. He was comfortable with his set of ethics and those nurses how carried out his orders were either on the same page or they were afraid of losing their jobs. This is all old history. I was very young at the time.

Many of the individuals who choose to go into the health care arena may well be people who find the notion of acting as angels of death to be so deeply disturbing as to be impossible. This means that these individuals can not and should not be called upon to perform an abortion nor to assist in a much desired suicide (euthanasia). Their response may be prompted by their ethical stance or by a simple squeamishness but it doesn't matter. If you can't do it, you can't do it.

Nevertheless, let us look at the old and terminally ill Catholic lady who blind-sided the young Bubble. The woman was dying and she was in torment. Bubble couldn't kill her off. I couldn't, either. (I always send my husband off to the vet when our animals are terminal. I can't deal with life and death! Well, death and death....)

It strikes me that the health care profession may well need such hired gun-slingers as Dr. Kervorkian in order to assist such individuals as the elderly and terminally ill Catholic lady who had confronted the young Bubble with her big request. A woman who found herself in such pain that she was willing to give up her wedding ring and her chance for heaven in order to obtain relief from her physical pain is a woman whose torment is such that she has lost all connection with all the rules and beliefs which make up her life. I find thinking about this woman's situation deeply painful. I cannot imagine how the on-going exposure to these challenges must affect those individuals who work in the health care field.

I do find, however, that there is a need for the gunslingers. My husband and I have often passed through those dreadful points of emotional terrain where we have had to acknowledge that we have to take an animal to the vet in order to have it euthanized. Of course each time this happens the effect upon us is dreadful and I behave badly for quite some period following the death. And I am never, ever able to take the animal to the vet. I stick my mate with this job. But, the thing is that this has to be done with animals who are in distress and sometimes this should be done with humans who are in distress and who are capable of asking for some kind of help because they find that they are drowning in pain and that they are losing grip on their own sense of their self-respect.

[marjon9 6]

This whole thing makes me so sad, because I know that there is an army of people out there who believe that they are guided by the "Word of God" and they make it their business to force people to suffer. And there is no hope of communication in that type of situation. If "God" tells you to do something, well, I guess you do it. And you feel justified, indeed, obligated, to force other people to live by the same rules, against their will. It's just so sad to think of the immense suffering this causes.

[BJean 16]

Can you begin to imagine what it would be like to have lived a beautiful dignified life, where you respected others and they respected you, but to die crippled in pain, totally dependent upon strangers? It doesn't matter if you are a highly educated professional, or a poor migrant worker. If you have conducted yourself with dignity and been a kind person and have the respect of others in your life, but are reduced to being at the mercy of others (whose beliefs you may not share) during the course of your illness and death, possibly forced to be kept alive against your wishes, with respirators, feeding tubes, dialysis, etc., with no chance of making your voice heard, how grossly unfair and undignified your death would be. The pain would not only be physical, but psychological (emotional) as well. How unfair of us to treat human beings that way.

My son and DIL adopted a puppy when they were first married. An American Staffordshire Terrier, as their vet suggested they refer to her, or pit bull, as they're commonly known. They did everything that an excellent set of pet owners could possibly do to mold that puppy into a fine, upstanding, beautiful creature residing in their neighborhood. They worked with Lucy endless hours to teach her love and how to behave in every situation, and Lucy responded beautifully. She was a model citizen and beloved member of their family

When Lucy was 14 people years old, she developed several conditions that caused her incredible pain. One was cancer, one was degenerative bone disease and a sort of arthritis. They administered several very potent and expensive drugs for over a year. Eventually Lucy was in so much pain, in spite of the drugs, that she had trouble getting in and out of her bed, eating her meal and just plain walking. They loved her so much, but they knew that they had to think of Lucy, not themselves.

My DIL made the arrangements (my son was too emotional to attend) and took Lucy to the vet to be put out of her misery. DIL and the doctor and his assistant were there when he administered the drug that would stop Lucy's huge, wonderful heart. After the injection, the doctor and assistant left DIL with Lucy to say their goodbyes. My DIL said that she just spoke softly to Lucy and stroked her sore muscles and assured Lucy of her love and the fact that she would soon be out of her misery, and Lucy let out a long sigh and just went to sleep.

We all cried sad tears but it was such an selfless and endearing thing that my DIL did for Lucy. It was beautiful. We continue to have fond memories of Lucy in life and feel good about how she died - respectfully, quietly, with dignity and with someone she loved at her side. Instead of the alternative, being kept alive with drugs way beyond when she should have been, simply out of selfishness.

How can we not treat human beings with similar sensitivity and dignity?

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

BJean...

That was an absolutely beautiful post. I agree with every single word you write.

[BJean 16]

Thanks, Bubble. I really appreciate it. Remembering Lucy sure brought tears while I was typing. I'm glad I was able to get my point across to someone with such a good heart. If one has never been through it, they probably can't understand the dignity part. I know that you deal with this quite often in your life, and your patients are fortunate to have you on their team.