Illegal aliens

[green 6]

Greed is very much the name of the game. My husband has just come back from spending the past month in Mexico. His mission was to assist in training Mexicans to perform highly paid unionized Canadian jobs in the field of aircraft manufacturing. He is a union member himself. He opted to go down because he was told by the company that these local jobs were leaving the country no matter what and if the Mexicans didn't work out the work would be sent to China. In light of this information he chose to go to Mexico even though he felt like a traitor to his own country. What he found when he arrived depressed him still further - a state of the art facility which puts our local plant to shame.

In the Holiday Inn where he was staying he found many American and Canadian businessmen who were all down in Mexico for the same reason: they were working on the transfer of Canadian and American jobs to Mexico. The city where all this activity is going on numbers approximately 1 million inhabitants, is situated in the interior, in the mountains and thus the summer weather isn't unbearably hot and humid.

The local newbies at the plant make approximately $500 Cdn/month including overtime. My husband who is a leadhand in his field makes close to $30 Cdn/hr straight time + benefits. The average Canadian worker in his field doesn't make much less.

The difference in these figures is stunning, I think, and I believe that more and more companies will shift manufacturing operations down to Mexico. This will lead to Mexico becoming one of those emerging economies, just as India and China are emerging economies. This economic growth may eventually solve the illegal problem north of the border. Up here we will be facing other problems, however; we will be without those highly paid unionized manufacturing jobs.

[BJean 16]

Well if the numbers we keep hearing the news all the time are correct - somewhere around 12 million illegals living in this country - you know that many large corporations must be giving them jobs, not just the growers in California.

It seems that maybe the observations that Green's DH made in Mexico are widespread down there, it is not any wonder that the bill that came up for consideration recently was so generous to the illegals. We don't want them to leave since it would mean even more jobs leaving the country.

Another thing I've wondered about is that if we make them legal with proper documentation and they begin to pay into the system, i.e., taxes, insurance, medical, etc., they won't be able to live with the low wages either. I mean some people here make it sound as if American workers are so greedy and lazy that they refuse to take menial labor jobs. I'm not so sure that is always the case. Maybe they just can't afford to work for those wages what with the taxes, insurance, medical and stuff Americans are required to take care of every day. Illegals are in many cases using the system but not paying for it and therefore they can afford to take the jobs with very low wages.

[green 6]

Another thing I've wondered about is that if we make them legal with proper documentation and they begin to pay into the system, i.e., taxes, insurance, medical, etc., they won't be able to live with the low wages either. I mean some people here make it sound as if American workers are so greedy and lazy that they refuse to take menial labor jobs. I'm not so sure that is always the case. Maybe they just can't afford to work for those wages what with the taxes, insurance, medical and stuff Americans are required to take care of every day. Illegals are in many cases using the system but not paying for it and therefore they can afford to take the jobs with very low wages.

You make good points in the above quoted post, BJean. Once people are working legally and paying into the system they will not have as much cash to take home. Then they will be united in demanding better pay and better working conditions.

Another point is that both the rich and the working poor all consume roughly the same amount of the basic necessities: toilet paper, personal sanitary products, dish soap, etc. And the poor, like the rich, need shelter, food, clothing, transportation, and access to education and health care. This is the union's reasoning behind the comparatively little disparity between the hourly wages of the skilled and the less/unskilled labour in my husband's unionised plant. Toronto is an expensive city to live in - primarily because shelter and food are expensive here - and so everyone needs money to live in a decent manner. The better jobs are better paying but not by very much; they are, however, a lot more interesting.

[Marimaru 7]

I think there is a very big gap between the cost of living, and the wages being paid. I have a friend trying to get a job here in Southern California and they want to pay him $10 to be an admin assistant. I made little more than that when I lived in a single apartment by myself, and I was still living paycheck to paycheck. You are either living in a crappy neighborhood, or you're driving insane distances to get to work, the rent is still high in the crappy neighborhood, or your gas bill is killing you.

There needs to be a medium between "I'm not paying that much for that!" and "I need to make more money!". We wouldn't need to make so much more money if things didn't cost so much. As example, the cost of gas; yes, we are very lucky in that we've paid less that many countries for a good long time, but the prices were not raised because they necessarily needed to be, the gas companies are making a higher percentage of profit than ever. That, and executives don't need to be making what they're making and getting the bonuses that they are getting. If we cut that down, we could raise the rates of the low end jobs, and more people would be able to afford those jobs.

Sorry if that goes around in circles, I was thinking as I typed it out.

[BJean 16]

Well if you think about it Green, in Mexico there's the very wealthy and the very poor with not so much in between.

In Canada, it sounds like the middle class is a larger percentage of the population. Which is how it used to always be in the U.S. However, things have begun to slide here.

Like Marimaru noted, the top people in corporations here are making huge salaries and bonuses and they're paying as low a wage scale as they can manage for the men and women who are the backbone of their companies.

My parents taught me a work ethic that is hardly relevant today. They said that if you work for someone, you should always be loyal. If you can't feel loyal, leave. Never work for someone, take their money, and not be able to support them and what they stand for.

Today it has become silly to teach our children that. Corporations are huge and they are impersonal, and they have no loyalty toward their empoyees. Most corporate bigwigs are only looking at the bottom line, which is what their bonuses are based on. They don't want to know or care about the lifestyle or problems of the "little man" that works for them. So I ask you, why should employees feel loyal to people like that?

There are a few companies who do look after their employees. Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream, Hewlet Packard, and others and people clamor to work for them. They are successful and the pride of workmanship is apparent in their products. Plus I'm pretty sure Ben, Jerry, Mr. Hewlett & Mr. Packard (if those last two exist) are living a very comfortable life. Maybe they're not on the billionaire list, but I feel sure that they sleep at night.

[EVA 0]

Your right I did take offense and perhaps I came accross abit strong. I am just a very upfront person not so much mad. Its just when I read posts that express opinions that are made without experience it does offend. I come from a major city and honestly I've traveled alot around the country and see how the views as well as living conditions differ dramatically for immigrants.

its just to be truthfull I find some of the comments offensive and there are those who can tell me then dont read the post but then you'll never realize that what you say is offensive to others. As for the comment of voting I am a citizen and a registered voter and have every intention to vote.

I dont agree that people who came before the immigration laws have more rights then those who came after. I know what the laws and they need to be followed but what I am expressing is there right to be here on a continent perhaps my views of the world are a little larger then others and perhaps I see things through a a different set of glasses, but I dont beleive that this country is mine its everyones I dont see the neigborhood as belonging to me so much as me belonging to it. Hey if you dont see my point you probably never will but if you also dont see how some of the comments were racist and very suburban housewife driven I cant help you either way I wont be keeping up with this thread since to be honest Im here to learn more about the band and how it can help me improve my life not try to change someones views on the rights of the rest of humanity. Best of luck to you with your band lets just hope you dont have it done by the Dr. in Mexico who has to work from a border town to make american pesos because hes not welcome here. I wonder if you had to pay him as much as it costs in the states would you still go to him. Anyhow those are my 2 cents.

Ciao

[DerickM 1]

I truly and honestly believe that pretty much the only way to help the average person of Mexico is for union to send people down there to aggressively recruit and organize.

Yes there WILL be deaths as the government, crime lords and industry leaders fight back but they did here in America also. My great grandfather was among those who were there when the national guard of New Jersey was called out and shot down strikers.

Once the living situation in mexico is improved the immigration problem will no longer be much of a problem.

[mrspruett 0]

Derick- what you say does make a lot of sense. Improving the wages, working conditions, etc. in Mexico would lessen the attraction of the U.S.A. wouldn't it? I am sure, as you say, it would be a violent struggle, but hey that is what we are looking at here if things don't improve......violence. People are very angry and the outcome cannot be good if something doesn't change. We suburban housewives are a bloodthirsty bunch of gals

[green 6]

@ Derrick: both my husband and I are pro-union types and I was in the same union as he is before I retired. I used to build aircraft and that is how we met.

North of the border you will find a number of strong unions and this is part of the British tradition which has been imported here. The teachers have a very, very powerful union and a huge investment arm which manages their retirement fund which can and does affect our financial sector. Public employees also belong to a powerful union, as do the police, the workers in some of our grocery store chains, the Toronto public transit workers.... You get the idea.

When Walmart opened up here there were isolated attempts to unionise certain stores but Walmart either threatened to or did close down these stores; they figured that the Walmart customers would shop at the next nearest store. The only Walmart employees who were successful at unionising were ones at a store in a remote region of Quebec, I think. It was the only Walmart in the region.

The union to which my husband and I belong is a powerful one but unfortunately the aircraft industry has got our local by the short and curlies; you see our company has been busy shifting our work between its many international operations for sometime now. Its latest stunt is to develop new plants in those countries where the workers come cheap and so my husband has spent a month teaching Mexicans how to do what was formerly Canadian work. He told me that the Mexicans do have a union but that it is very weak. This is to be expected; there are a lot of people in Mexico who want those jobs and a strike would likely be ineffective. Sad....

[green 6]

@BJean: yes, you are right. North of the border we do have a large middle class. This may be in part due to the power of the unions for many blue collar workers earn what might be considered to be "white collar" money. It is also true that these jobs are as available to new Canadians as they are to anyone else and this improves the general cash and social flow throughout the community. People buy more. They go out to restaurants more often. Their kids get involved in local soccer and hockey clubs. The parents get involved with these events.

Our large middle class may also be due to the fact that our immigration laws are now very strict. Though many of our applicants are from under developed countries we only admit the cream: the healthiest and best educated ones. Of course once they get here we don't necessarily recognise their qualifications, especially if they are doctors or lawyers. There are many Canadians who feel that Canada is doing a bad thing by robbing those countries of their much needed elite.

Of course what America is receiving in terms of a new work force is the opposite; you are receiving an uncontrolled flood of the hard-scrabble poor and desperate. I am filled with sympathy for them but I also filled with sympathy for the American citizen. As I have noted in previous posts, this flood is placing unmanageable stress on your local financial and social infrastructures. This is a very, very serious business.

[Marimaru 7]

Eva has said she wont be back to this thread, but I want to comment on what she's said. I don't know of any country that doesn't have immigration laws. I'm also not aware of a country other than ours that doesn't enforce the immigration laws, strictly. The argument over whether what 'we' did originally when 'we' came here and took over the area is kind of moot, as anyone who had anything to do with that is dead, although people are still receiving compensation for it. But since we immigrated here 'illegally' we should let other people do it now too?

I think children should learn a second language. Many other countries require it. However, they shouldn't have to learn Spanish just because a bunch of people here wont learn English. There are many, many other languages they could learn that would be useful to them on the future.

I believe that if our government wants to make a dent in this, they are going to need to go after the companies who are hiring illegals, and go after them hard. If you get raided and illegal workers are found, you should be heavily fined. If it happens again, someone should go to jail.

Bleah

[green 6]

I don't think that it is so much as those individuals won't learn English but that in many cases the older folk simply can't. This would be for reasons of natural inability to pick up another language, age, or, in the case of many immigrants, both legal and illegal let it be noted, these folk tend to or are forced to remain within their own protection/comfort zone; they stay with people of their own tribe. Their kids, however, learn English and integrate into the host society.

I see this where I live. Our new citizens will sponsor older family members, their parents and grandparents, to come over to live with them. These folks will likely never learn English, will remain fearful of our culture, and will never assimilate. The ones who have sponsored them will speak English with an accent and may have great difficulties with the language depending on their natural abilities. It is the children who seamlessly blend into our culture.

As for unwanted immigrants, there are a number of European countries who are going through similar problems at this time. These are those countries who have had colonies and who are now find themselves on the hook and must accept immigrants from their former colonies. The formerly very white Britain has been receiving an influx of immigrants from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, certain African nations, and its many colonies in the Caribean for the past 50 years or so.

France now has a sizable Muslim population, one which is primarily drawn from its former North African colonies. These folks are different from the French both in terms of race and religion. The French call them les arabs and this group currently occupy a position in France which is roughly analogous to the position traditionally occupied by Blacks in America.

Germany has been hosting a sizable population of Turkish people for generations now. They call these people gastarbeiter - guest workers - even though these families have been living in Germany for some generations now, long enough that they really are no longer Turkish, and yet their status in Germany is ambiguous.

These are just a few examples of the social upheavals which are currently going on in Western Europe. You see, all of these nation are old nations with deep roots and a fairly rigid sense of nationhood because of this. These are European nations which, historically speaking, have had trouble dealing with other Europeans.

I believe that we who live on this side of the Atlantic are ahead of the game in certain respects. We are accustomed to welcoming variety. Democratic ideals have always been the treasured norm and the new world has been built upon immigration and impure - hooray! - genetic blood lines. I don't know how many times that I have read a poster say well, I am part Cherokee or my background is Italian but my mate's family is ....

I have lived in France and I have European relatives and let me tell you that one does often not run into these blends which over here are considered to be the norm. People over there are more insular in some respects.

In other respects, however, they are a lot cooler than we are. The establishment of the European Common Market has meant that anyone who lives in any of the member countries has the right to treat all member countries as his or her home. Member citizens can choose to live and work anywhere they want inside the European union. This means that a Portuguese can move to England and a Brit can move to Italy without any beaurocratic stress. This should be viewed as legally sanctioned uncontrolled immigration or migration within mainland western Europe and Great Britain. This block is growing: certain former east European countries have or are about to be added. Poland is now a member of the Union; Britain is now flooded with cheap Polish labour as a result. Turkey is agitating to become a member.

I think, and I might be wrong or wrongish, that we are operating from both a position of strength and weakness. We are ahead of the game in that our history has been based on democratic and inclusive ideals. We are used to living in an egalitarian and pluralistic society, one that recognises that we were once all immigrants. This means that we are more open and accepting of our fellow humans and their differences. Indeed we tend to prize individuality. Our strength is that we are more open, more interested in others who are unlike ourselves, less racist and less bigoted.

On the other hand, our geographical isolation has often acted against us. Those European nations (which are for many of us our parental roots) are all geographically jammed up against each other and have had for this very reason a long and bloody history. At the same time there has been a great deal of intellectual cross pollination and most Europeans do end up speaking fragments of a number of other languages just because they are in the vicinity. (My own father spoke 7 languages.)

All of these countries have within modern times experienced the experience of dreadful wars fought on their own soil. The Second World War lasted from 1939 to 1945. From all that I have read on the subject France never did recover from the effects of the First World War, a war which was fought on her property, by the time that the Second War was underway.

The above paragraph may seem in the way of a digression but my point is that we who live over here are used to feeling pretty much isolated from the rest of the world thanks to our geographical situation and our affluence. But the world will intrude in one way or another and the world is complicated business. (Something which George W and his gang of white hat-wearing gang of cowboys didn't realise when they went charging into the Middle East. Forgive me for this digression, eh.)

Anyhow, it does strike me that there are oil and gas reserves on this side of the hemisphere (and here I am thinking of Venezuela, at least I think that it is Venezuela???:help:) and that it might be an interesting approach for us on this side of the Atlantic to think outside the box.

Perhaps we could structure a union which would be more along the lines of the European model. Certainly this would permit for the free flow of personnel between member countries but, on the other hand, all migrant workers would be street legal and thus required to pay into the local, state/provincial, and federal tax pools. This would also mean that highly trained personnel or, for that matter, retirees who wanted to shift from the northern American or Canadian (ugh!) climate to the member nations of the Americas' member block which are south of the American border are entirely free to do so and will not be subject to any local penalties, limitations, or fines.

I suggest this because I see that the globe has fractured into trading blocks and into emerging economies.

The emerging economies are those hugely populated nations which are able to provide us with cheap goods. The European Common Market is a trading block. NAFTA, a trading alliance which encompasses Canada, the U.S., and Mexico, is a flaccid immitation. Canada is now attempting to become a member nation of the European Common Market I believe; of course I may have misread the newsreport but I kinda hope not. I am, afterall, a Canuck, eh.

What I would like to see is a pan-American economic and social structure, one which would eventually parallel the European Common Market. Our neighbours to the south have the manpower and they have the raw materials, including fossil fuels, which we are anxious to secure. And certainly these nations are anxious to be invited to the feast.

What this means to Americans, for it is you who are bearing the brunt of this unchecked immigration which is destroying your local infrastructures, is that your government must take the giant leap and step outside the current box. It is certain that Canada would follow. Canadians are big on supporting these kind of initiatives, eh.

Quite frankly, I would stop dumping money into the middle east and Africa. Iraq was an exceptionally dumb idea and the only real attraction there was gaining access to those fossil fuels. As for Africa, the food aid goes directly into the pockets of the local dictators.

The Central and South American countries do understand the idea of democracy. Fossil fuel reserves do exist on this side of the Atlantic. The Americas are also rich in precious metals. And you will note that there is little terrorist activity indigenous to the Americas. A president can invest his country's money wisely, you know.

As for Anglo-speakers learning Spanish....ugh! and why shouldn't they? I am Canuck and so I was subjected to years of French. I had a succession of lousy teachers and the language irritated me even though I had a certain feel for languages. I did brilliantly in German and in Latin and I barely passed my ass in French.

Years later I washed up in the south of France and it was then that I started to really learn how to speak French, a most annoying language. I am under the impression that most people will not trouble to learn anything unless they are forced to do so. This is the role that school is supposed to play in our lives when we are young, is it not? The whole school thang is designed to stuff as much learning as possible down our gullets as the system can get away with before we choose to bail.

Up here in Canada there has been this vague hope that all Anglophones (English speakers) might successfully learn our other official language. This has been our politically correct hope since the centennial of Canada's existence, July da 1st, 1967. This hasn't been all that successful but we do still live with all items which are available for consumption in Canada available only in a format which is bilingual.

This worked to my advantage when I did find myself, an English-speaker, living in the south of France. I had lousy grammar but I sure did have a surprisingly extensive vocabulary en francais and this is how I was able to rabbit on about my problems with my hemmorhoids. Of course I did eventually acquire facility in the language because I was forced to.

Listen up! When I was young I hated learning French, a language for which I felt no natural kinship, from a gang of truly lousy teachers.

Now I hear that some of you are bitchin' about your kids being forced to learn Spanish. In my opinion any knowledge is better than no knowledge. And the acquisition of Spanish as a second language is much more useful than the acquisition of French. This is a question of global economics of course. To be forced to learn another language is a privilege. This is how my father learned how to speak 7 languages; he was forced to learn most of them. Knowledge, however ya get it, is both power and a privilege.

The reason that so many children are overtaking American kids with respect to academic performance is because they are housed in school systems where kids are expected to learn. That is their job. Nobody is fussing about the Spanish language crap.

Once again, an overly long post. Sorry.

[BJean 16]

Well yeah but... how do you REALLY feel green? Uh, I know... with your HANDS!!

Seriously your post underscores how complicated this issue is and one reason why our Congressional leaders and the White House are stuck in the proverbial muck over it.

But I gotta say this... Eva I know you have said that you know how to quit us, but you've taken quite a few bigoted potshots before going along your angry way. That's not fair, although I can't blame you for not wanting to prolong the debate. We aren't, after all, solving the issue here. But we ARE trying to learn a thing or four from each other since we have such varied lives and locales.

I do not know the "suburban housewife" who is driven by a narrow experience based existence as you have characterized some women and frankly I find your comments to be way further off base than most of the other posts here. You are pointing accusing fingers and you do not seem to understand the discussion. You are saying people don't know what they are talking about because they haven't experienced it and because they aren't as worldly as you. There is just no way that you can know how how educated any of us are on the subject and exactly how much experience we have relating to the issue. You can only guess by our posts. In some cases I believe you've guessed wrong.

Obviously you are very passionate about the subject and we can all understand and sympathize with you. However you shouldn't really dismiss the rest of us as being ignorant and inexperienced, you would be better served to read our posts and get a better understanding of what you are up against when you defend illegal aliens entering and living in our country. Plus you might even get an inkling of WHY we feel the way we do - instead of just insulating yourself from us. You seem to take the position that we dislike the illegals themselves. That just isn't true for most of us.

[L8BloomR 1]

A great response, BJean.... well-stated and also compassionate. Thanks for saying so well what many of us have been trying to say.

[BJean 16]

Why thank you, L8RBloom - that means a lot coming from you!