Illegal aliens

[susannah 2]

I just want to weigh in here by saying that I agree we should enforce our immigration laws and we need to strengthen them as well. We need to protect ourselves and we can't take care of all the world's poor. We already allow many to enter legally.

But, I also have to be honest and say, if I saw my family suffering I would cross the border illegally, and do it over and over again if that's what it took. And I feel confident that everyone on this forum would do the same if they were faced with that situation and had a way.

So, I think it is very important here not to lay the blame at the feet of people who are trying to find a decent life. It's fine to call them illegal and all that. But the truth is, every one of us would do the same if our child was hungry. I think it is important to remember that.

Well said Mark. We need to remember that these people are exactly that, human beings. I guess I am just a humanist. I understand that there has to be laws in this regard or there would be total anarchy.

More people coming? Like my Bubbe used to say "Let's just put some more Water in the soup";)

Susannah

[Evilah 1]

leatha g,

I think it's an outrage that mexican's and islanders get to come here and stay because they can walk or boat in. I've never lived in Mexico, or one of those islands, but I have lived in the east, and it's just not fair. In fact, people who live in those countries (so far away, they would have to fly in) complain about the unfairness of it.

Jasmine,

I really resent it when people choose not to learn and use english. Even if your english is heavily accented or your sentence construction is wrong, I will try my best (which I've been told is pretty good since I speak other languages and have lived overseas) to understand your english. For me, when I see a hispanic person who isn't even close to speaking english, I begin to suspect he/she is illegal. Otherwise, I probably would never think you're illegal by your looks unless I saw you standing behind home depot asking for "trabajo". But then one of my two best friends in college is hispanic, and the other is half hispanic. Both are intelligent and well-educated and are an asset, I think, to this country. In fact, the one whose parents are both Mexican, has 7 brothers and sisters and most of them have college degrees. But I also think that this is not the typical situation for the children of Mexican immigrants

Evilah

[susannah 2]

Hey, Evilah, words really fail me here. How old are you? Time and age can give people wisdom and compassion and perspective. Have you lived through the terrible torture and suffering that some of these people have? Have you ever been traumatised and scared for your very life?

As for demanding that people speak English, some people are busy trying to put a roof over their kids head and adapt to life in another country. It must be overwhelming and intimidating. How do you know that they are choosing not to learn English? They will learn English when they get their head above Water and feel confident to do so.

People come from all walks of life and just because they don't have a college degree it does not make them any less of a valuable and productive member of society. Good on the garbage collectors of this world, because they help the world to turn I reckon.

Look I am sure there are some shysters also, no doubt about it. I am sure there are those trying to rort the system for economic gain also.

It just sounds like thinly veiled racism to me to be honest. Let's just victimize and marginalize the most vulnerable people in society. Let's just keep trotting out the same hackneyed sentiments. By the way, people are not aliens they are people.

A bit of the milk of human kindness would not go astray here.

Susannah

[babygrl1234 6]

As for demanding that people speak English, some people are busy trying to put a roof over their kids head and adapt to life in another country. It must be overwhelming and intimidating. How do you know that they are choosing not to learn English? They will learn English when they get their head above Water and feel confident to do so.

I disagree with this. I had a garage sale last year and probably about 75% of the people who showed up were hispanic. Out of that 75% almost all of them had to have their children translate conversation between myself and them. Now I understand that children learn things faster than adults do and it is much easier for them to pick up learning English but if your child can speak perfectly fluent English with me then you should have picked up enough of it to be able to converse with me. I had four years of spanish in high school and I felt confident enough to be able hold a conversation with someone albeit at a slower pace. If I were going to go and live in another country (or heck even just visit for a summer) I would learn anough of the language to communicate. English should be the first thing that they try to learn not something that they get around to.

[musicalmomma 1]

I disagree with this. I had a garage sale last year and probably about 75% of the people who showed up were hispanic. Out of that 75% almost all of them had to have their children translate conversation between myself and them. Now I understand that children learn things faster than adults do and it is much easier for them to pick up learning English but if your child can speak perfectly fluent English with me then you should have picked up enough of it to be able to converse with me. I had four years of spanish in high school and I felt confident enough to be able hold a conversation with someone albeit at a slower pace. If I were going to go and live in another country (or heck even just visit for a summer) I would learn anough of the language to communicate. English should be the first thing that they try to learn not something that they get around to.

AMEN!!!!!!! Not to mention that MANY communities offer FREE "English as a second language" night courses!

I'm not even close to racsist and I resent the implcation that I'm a racsist because my belief is that you should come here legally AND learn the language. Especially from people that don't even LIVE in the US and don't deal with being passed up for a job because an employer can pay illegals under the table for less. My best friend in high school (and maid of honor in my 1st marriage) is hispanic...heck I even dated her brother in high school (boy was he hot!) but I digress...Their family immigrated to the US legally, built a prosperous business, AND managed to learn the language!

It's funny how those who tell us to be careful no to place "labels" on people, can label anyone that doesn't agree with their point of view (e.g. the label of racist)

[Devana 0]

Practically speaking, what do people think should be done?

I don't feel like going back over the thread and finding out how illegals there are in the US, but I remember being astounded at the number. It was in the millions, I remember.

Has any government body looked at the cost-benefit balance of this situation? I understand that non taxpayers put a huge stress on the system, but is there an economic advantage in having these people present?

Do people just want them out or do they want them just to pay taxes?

If you want them out, how much are you willing to pay to evict millions of people and patrol the borders? This would probably be a huge cost and likely have to put a strain on other funded services like health or the military. It would also cost a lot to register and make these people legal and get them into the system. However, they would then be paying taxes legitimately.

Does anyone see any value in the cultural diversity that the illegals provide?

[*JASMINE* 1]

"Jasmine,

I really resent it when people choose not to learn and use english. Even if your english is heavily accented or your sentence construction is wrong, I will try my best (which I've been told is pretty good since I speak other languages and have lived overseas) to understand your english. For me, when I see a hispanic person who isn't even close to speaking english, I begin to suspect he/she is illegal. Otherwise, I probably would never think you're illegal by your looks unless I saw you standing behind home depot asking for "trabajo". But then one of my two best friends in college is hispanic, and the other is half hispanic. Both are intelligent and well-educated and are an asset, I think, to this country. In fact, the one whose parents are both Mexican, has 7 brothers and sisters and most of them have college degrees. But I also think that this is not the typical situation for the children of Mexican immigrants"

Evilah,

I completely understand the irritation that this causes. I was born here. My first language was spanish, but over the years, I have come to forget more and more of it. People see me, and try to speak to me in spanish. I try to work with them, but am not always able to communicate properly. My parents both came here legally and taught themselves how to speak english. They both have an accent. My mother raised four girls all on her own. No child support, no college education, no support from the government.

So, going on your last statement, what do you think is a typical situation for the children of Mexican immigrants? How do you think they turn out? Do you think that most of them grow up uneducated and if so, why do you think they turn out this way?

[*JASMINE* 1]

Hey, Evilah, words really fail me here. How old are you? Time and age can give people wisdom and compassion and perspective. Have you lived through the terrible torture and suffering that some of these people have? Have you ever been traumatised and scared for your very life?

As for demanding that people speak English, some people are busy trying to put a roof over their kids head and adapt to life in another country. It must be overwhelming and intimidating. How do you know that they are choosing not to learn English? They will learn English when they get their head above Water and feel confident to do so.

People come from all walks of life and just because they don't have a college degree it does not make them any less of a valuable and productive member of society. Good on the garbage collectors of this world, because they help the world to turn I reckon.

Look I am sure there are some shysters also, no doubt about it. I am sure there are those trying to rort the system for economic gain also.

It just sounds like thinly veiled racism to me to be honest. Let's just victimize and marginalize the most vulnerable people in society. Let's just keep trotting out the same hackneyed sentiments. By the way, people are not aliens they are people.

A bit of the milk of human kindness would not go astray here.

Susannah

I completely agree. Well said, Susannah:clap2: .

[*JASMINE* 1]

Practically speaking, what do people think should be done?

I don't feel like going back over the thread and finding out how illegals there are in the US, but I remember being astounded at the number. It was in the millions, I remember.

Has any government body looked at the cost-benefit balance of this situation? I understand that non taxpayers put a huge stress on the system, but is there an economic advantage in having these people present?

Do people just want them out or do they want them just to pay taxes?

If you want them out, how much are you willing to pay to evict millions of people and patrol the borders? This would probably be a huge cost and likely have to put a strain on other funded services like health or the military. It would also cost a lot to register and make these people legal and get them into the system. However, they would then be paying taxes legitimately.

Does anyone see any value in the cultural diversity that the illegals provide?

Thank you for bringing these questions up and focusing on a solution. I sometimes think that some people get so caught up on complaining about situations and not doing anything to make them better. I can complain about a lot of things such as welfare recepients who are legal and choose not to work and have us tax payers support them.

Most people just say, "Stop coming. Do it legally." But let's face it, they are not going to stop coming if it means providing a better life for their families. And the Mexican government is not going to keep them there. It's up to our government to find a solution. I also think that if it were harder for them to find work here, it would not be as appealing to come here illegaly. But they are ultimately the ones responsible for their actions...

[green 6]

Devana's questions are good ones, I think. I have been keeping quiet on the illegal question for although my tendancy is to be sympathetic to them, at the same time I have no understanding at all of the stresses and strains which they may be placing on American society.

Up here in Canada we do have illegals but we have proportionally speaking many fewer of them than you do by all accounts. Our largest city, Toronto, the city where I live, is a city comprised of immigrants, many of them recent and I have heard it said that well over half of us speak a mother tongue which is not English. Multi-culturalism seems to work extremely well here and gives this city a real vibrancy, but perhaps this is because our citizens come from all over the globe and not from one single area. It may be that in areas where there are large numbers of Mexicans and Americans living together that relationships become more us-them and thus more socially antagonistic.

The health care thing is not a sore point for us, either, because we have, as you are probably aware, universal health care. This means that while we do pay for health care, we pay for this through our taxes, not as a direct hit through an insurance policy.

Then there is this point to take into account, I think. From all that I have heard the Mexicans head north in order to work and they do find employment on the American side of the border. If they weren't getting work, would they come? Aren't Americans complicit in this situation when they continue to hire illegal workers? And why are illegals doing this work when there are many Americans who are jobless and receiving welfare? Why don't the Republicans institute workfare programmes? Or the Democrats raise the minimum wage so that these jobs would become more attractive to Americans?

And as to the complaint that many of the older Mexicans only speak Spanish, my hunch would be that those individuals who are illegal are afraid to move outside their own groups for fear that they might be discovered and deported. They will have little chance to learn English. Remember, too, that these are individuals who likely received little formal education at home. These are the poor people of Mexico who only wish to survive and hope that their anchor babies will have much better lives in America. Educated folks usually have no need to leave home and enter another country as illegals.

[marjon9 6]

Devana's questions are good ones, I think. I have been keeping quiet on the illegal question for although my tendancy is to be sympathetic to them, at the same time I have no understanding at all of the stresses and strains which they may be placing on American society.

Up here in Canada we do have illegals but we have proportionally speaking many fewer of them than you do by all accounts. Our largest city, Toronto, the city where I live, is a city comprised of immigrants, many of them recent and I have heard it said that well over half of us speak a mother tongue which is not English. Multi-culturalism seems to work extremely well here and gives this city a real vibrancy, but perhaps this is because our citizens come from all over the globe and not from one single area. It may be that in areas where there are large numbers of Mexicans and Americans living together that relationships become more us-them and thus more socially antagonistic.

The health care thing is not a sore point for us, either, because we have, as you are probably aware, universal health care. This means that while we do pay for health care, we pay for this through our taxes, not as a direct hit through an insurance policy.

Then there is this point to take into account, I think. From all that I have heard the Mexicans head north in order to work and they do find employment on the American side of the border. If they weren't getting work, would they come? Aren't Americans complicit in this situation when they continue to hire illegal workers? And why are illegals doing this work when there are many Americans who are jobless and receiving welfare? Why don't the Republicans institute workfare programmes? Or the Democrats raise the minimum wage so that these jobs would become more attractive to Americans?

And as to the complaint that many of the older Mexicans only speak Spanish, my hunch would be that those individuals who are illegal are afraid to move outside their own groups for fear that they might be discovered and deported. They will have little chance to learn English. Remember, too, that these are individuals who likely received little formal education at home. These are the poor people of Mexico who only wish to survive and hope that their anchor babies will have much better lives in America. Educated folks usually have no need to leave home and enter another country as illegals.

The points green makes are the types of arguments that make sense to me. I do understand frustration about illegals, and I do feel like something needs to be done. We can't just open our borders to the world's poor, for a lot of reasons.

BUT -- I also cannot escape the knowledge that the "average" American still leads a life of incredible wealth, comfort and security compared to the rest of the world. We use so much more than our "share" of the earth's resources, and we do by far the greatest damage to the environment. We are not bad people, and we should not feel guilty for our affluence. But on the other hand, I have a very hard time feeling the intense anger that so many people are expressing on this thread. Regardless of any intellectual arguments, my compassion for these people trumps my indignation over the higher taxes I must pay. And most significantly, I also know for sure that I would be doing the exact same thing if I were in their shoes (if they have shoes).

My wife and I have some visitors right now from a former soviet bloc country where my wife is originally from. This place is not considered to be Third World, by any means. People are generally well educated. These visitors won the "green card lottery" and they are here trying to see if they should move to the U.S. I've talked to them about their life back home. These people are considered quite average financially in their home country, and they are not starving, but they have a standard of living that is so much lower than ours it is astounding. The government recently discontinued supplying hot Water, so they don't have that anymore. And Water itself is shut off completely, and unpredictably, for extended periods of time. The price for natural gas just went up by 30%. The condition of the roads is so bad they are almost impossible to use (One of the first comments they made when they arrived is how impressed they were with our roads). And he also told me that the government is so corrupt that it is as if the mafia runs the country. The only way to get anything at all from a government agency is to pay a bribe. He said that there is really no future at all in his country for his 16 year old daughter (imagine how that feels).

And this is not considered a poor country, in particular. I just think that the standard of living experienced by the vast majority of the rest of the world is on a level that most Americans simply cannot imagine, and know nothing about at all.

So, as my overstuffed ass sits here in my overstuffed chair typing on one of the several computers I own, I just have a really, really hard time getting "angry" at the people who are trying to find a decent, secure toe hold somewhere on this earth for themselves and their families. Yes, I want to do something to make the borders more secure. But as we lock out all these horrible "illegals," I would hope there is room for something in our hearts besides "anger."

[FunnyDuddies 6]

You can be compassionate and help those who are trying to come to this country by sponsoring them, or providing contact information and the rules on how to migrate to this country. But to say that it is our DUTY because we are wealthier is crazy! We have poor in this country that need our help as well, and we do not need to take in and support the rest of the world's poor. We should not have to pay for another countries mistreatment of their people. The govts which these people often come from are socialist or communist in nature. Those people need to stand up to their govts and force a change. In the meantime, if they feel that America is a better place to live then they should do what is right in coming here and follow the proper rules set.

I grew up in the military, so I need help on this from you all. In the Dept of Defense schools we had ESL (English as a second language) classes for those students who did not speak English. We had night classes available for the adults, but it was a requirement for the children to take if they did not speak English fluently. This is a class that would start with kindergarten and go all the way up to 12th grade. Did or do they have that now for students in public schools here? I know there are some private schools teaching it. But I do not know about the public schools. If we do not, then we need to have them. DOD schools also would not allow a student to take their first language as their second language credit. For instance, if you were of Spanish decent, and grew up in a Spanish speaking household, you were not allowed to take Spanish as your second language. But you did get language credit if you took the ESL classes. I think this is great! And when did the second language classes go from the multitude offered (Latin, French, Spanish, Japanese) to just Spanish? I have talked to a few parents whose older children are taking Spanish because that is the only language taught. While I think that having a second language is important for children to learn, I think the particular language is an important choice based on their future career. Latin, Japanese, French, Italian, and Spanish are important to different career paths. And offering just one really does not help things.

In our household we do language days with the kids. Honestly, we do a lot of Spanish language days because we know that it will be easier for them to deal with the aliens who wish to not learn the language. We also do dutch because so many islanders speak dutch. We feel that, here in Florida, if they know dutch and Spanish they will be able to converse with anyone, no matter what their language barrier is. But we also expect them to choose a language after those two that fit in with whatever career path they choose, should they need to do business overseas in the future.

I have a very good friend who works on border patrol in south Texas. He says that the majority of the illegals that come across his border area that get caught are single males, usually smuggling drugs. He said that the border reports from other stations match his, and that a majority of the people coming in are not coming in to support their families or to make a better life for themselves, but to traffic drugs. Down here in Florida we have a lot of islanders that also come in to traffic drugs. But we get a lot of political refugees as well. I welcome the political refugees who come here and then go through the right steps to obtain citizenship.

[marjon9 6]

You can be compassionate and help those who are trying to come to this country by sponsoring them, or providing contact information and the rules on how to migrate to this country. But to say that it is our DUTY because we are wealthier is crazy! .

Did somebody say it was our duty to help people coming from another country? Just trying to follow your argument here.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

Comments like susannah's about the affluence of our nation, as well as some of the arguments to your one point on compassion is what my comment on duty is based on. No, your whole argument has not been on that, but i am addressing those bits of the comments that have to do with our nation's wealth, and the sharing that some people feel needs to happen.

I have a hard enough time paying for the schooling of some drop out punk down the street whose parents are too high to care whether he gets and education or not. To pay for the education and healthcare and housing for someone who broke the law coming into this country makes me sick. If they are not going to pull their own weight then why should I take care of them? I am working for my family and those that are trying to make a difference in their lives. Not someone who is going to skirt the system and cut corners.

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[susannah 2]

Hey, Yes I don't live in America, but I can make observations if I so desire. My Older brother lives in Brooklyn NY and pays his taxes, so no it is not an anti US issue by any means.

Australia also has an Illegal immigration situation, admittedly not to the same degree that occurs in the United States. I am speaking as a person and not a US resident. As I have stated I understand that there has to be laws to control immigration etc.

I would like to see some of the most vocal people here on this thread go and live in some of these countries, and lets see how long they would be able to cope for. All I am asking is for people to put themselves in the shoes of others and live life through their eyes for a while.

And yes I am sorry but America is an affluent country and so is Australia. No apologies there people.

Mark made some good points.

Susannah