Jerry Fallwell, Dead

[marjon9 6]

I'm fine with it, too....just as soon as we have provided medical care for all the children who are US citizens, or who came to the US legally. If we have surplus Medicaid funds after that, then we should definitely pay for the care of illegals. Same thing for food stamps, housing assistance, etc. Would you put your kids to bed hungry night after night so you could feed the neighbors' children?

I do feel a lot of compassion for those who are less fortunate, and I know I would cross the border illegally if I had to to take care of my family. But still, because resources are finite, I ultimately agree that we have to put ourselves first.

The thing that is hard for me to understand is the solutions being proposed. Many people, not necessarily Carlene, argue that we need to build a border fence and make stiffer penalties for illegals etc. But I just don't see how things like that could work.

If I had a problem with a lot of mice entering my house, and I had big pieces of cheese in every room, what would I do about the mouse problem? Would I build fences and set up mouse traps? Or would I just get rid of the cheese?

People come here because of the jobs and benefits. If we want to stop them, we need to stop making the jobs and benefits available. That means focusing on enforcement of the laws that Americans are breaking, not Mexicans.

There are other parts of the solution that need to be in place as well, like helping Mexico become a decent place to live so people want to stay there.

But one thing is for sure, things like fences and mouse traps will never work. They may help politicians win elections, but they will never actually solve the problem.

[Carlene 12]

It just gets me that I have to pay to support some people who choose to get over on the system.

If I had to choose between the two, I would much rather my tax dollars go to help someone, legal or illegally, who has the drive to work hard and support their family, then someone who just wants to live off of the government and collect welfare.

Boy, wouldn't we all! We have a whole, large bureaucracy that is supposed to do that - separate the deadbeats from the needy - but it sucks, to be perfectly blunt. There are illegals beating the system with anchor babies and forged documents, etc and there are others, both US citizens and legal aliens, who really deserve the help but can't get it for all the red tape. How do we tell the good guys from the bad?

But if I were in their shoes and was left with no other choice, I would do the same.

I don't know what I would do. And I don't know that they have "no other choice". Mexico is not a third world country. It has huge reserves of gas and oil, as well as a multi-billion dollar tourist industry. Medical care is cheap in Mexico, as compared to the US, as is the cost of living. That's why so many Americans take their retirement $$$ and move to Mexico.

[Carlene 12]

But one thing is for sure, things like fences and mouse traps will never work. They may help politicians win elections, but they will never actually solve the problem.

Mexico has strict immigration laws, and a serious problem with illegals sneaking across its southern border from Central America. Their solution is to arrest and deport every single illegal alien they can catch, after roughing them up a bit to discourage them from re-offending.

I am not advocating police brutality, but they do seem to have a better handle on the situation than we do.

What keeps poor Americans from invading the wealthiest suburbs....crossing city boundries and living 10 families to a (nice) house so they can enjoy the best schools, an in-ground pool, and easy access to menial, low-paying jobs? City code enforcement, for one.....a "mousetrap", if you will. After they rack up lots of unpaid fines, they would be unceremoniously arrested and taken off to jail. The city can write as many citations as it takes, and arrest people until they finally get tired of being locked up. My point is that enforcing the law is a really, really good place to start, if you want people to comply. Otherwise, they will just thumb their nose at you and keep on doing whatever the hell they like.

[marjon9 6]

Mexico has strict immigration laws, and a serious problem with illegals sneaking across its southern border from Central America. Their solution is to arrest and deport every single illegal alien they can catch, after roughing them up a bit to discourage them from re-offending.

I am not advocating police brutality, but they do seem to have a better handle on the situation than we do.

What keeps poor Americans from invading the wealthiest suburbs....crossing city boundries and living 10 families to a (nice) house so they can enjoy the best schools, an in-ground pool, and easy access to menial, low-paying jobs? City code enforcement, for one.....a "mousetrap", if you will. After they rack up lots of unpaid fines, they would be unceremoniously arrested and taken off to jail. The city can write as many citations as it takes, and arrest people until they finally get tired of being locked up. My point is that enforcing the law is a really, really good place to start, if you want people to comply. Otherwise, they will just thumb their nose at you and keep on doing whatever the hell they like.

I'm all for enforcing the law. But isn't it at least a little bit embarrassing that all the enforcement talk is directed to the people crossing the border, while we do virtually nothing to enforce the laws about hiring illegals? It makes us look so self-centered and hypocritical. This point is not lost on the illegal aliens themselves, or the Mexican government.

My focus on enforcing laws against hiring illegals is because I think that is what might actually work. It's pretty hard to make a strong argument that giving out "citations" to illegal aliens is going to stop them. It never has so far. But as the example with the mice shows, if you remove the cheese, they will stop coming. That is what might actually work.

But the main point is, this is not an argument for or against "enforcing the laws." I'm all for that. I'm just arguing that we should pay attention to enforcing the laws that might actually make a difference. Can anyone make a credible argument that building a fence and "busting" illegal aliens is likely to work better than removing the incentive they have to come here? If there we no jobs available to these people, why would they keep coming? This is a solution that is totally within our own control, that we can certainly succeed at doing if we want to, and that might actually work.

The reason we don't do it, of course, is that this would involve taking responsibility for our own actions instead of blaming others. We are really good at blaming those horrible "illegal aliens." We are really bad at facing our own responsibility and fault in this situation. Who wants to see American employers getting busted on the nightly news. It's a much cozier feeling to see pictures of border patrol agents handcuffing illegals and tossing them into a van for the punishment they so richly deserve.

[Carlene 12]

If there we no jobs available to these people, why would they keep coming? This is a solution that is totally within our own control, that we can certainly succeed at doing if we want to, and that might actually work.

I could not agree more. Enact VERY stiff penalities against employers who hire illegals. And I would add to that....legislation that prohibits illegals from receiving any public assistance whatsoever - including the right to send their children to public schools. AND end the "anchor baby" tactic by granting citizenship only to children born of legal immigrants. Also, once deported, never let them back in (legally). Do it right the first time or lose your chance at becoming an American citizen.

I am guessing here, but I think about 90% of all illegal aliens would leave voluntarily if these policies became law - and were strictly enforced.

Liberals who want to coddle illegal aliens for humanitarian reasons need to realize that they are, in the long run, hurting other Americans - the least skilled and the poorest educated Americans - by keeping unskilled wages artifically low. Americans WILL wash dishes and dig ditches, but they need to be paid a living wage if we expect them to survive on "honest work". As long as business owners can hire illegals to work for half the cost, they will continue to do so.

[marjon9 6]

end the "anchor baby" tactic by granting citizenship only to children born of legal immigrants.

This may be a good idea, but it would involve a constitutional amendment. That's a mighty big can of worms to open. It may be necessary, but no easy task to accomplish.

[Carlene 12]

This may be a good idea, but it would involve a constitutional amendment. That's a mighty big can of worms to open. It may be necessary, but no easy task to accomplish.

And it certainly won't be addressed under this administration. Bush's proposal amounts to another amnesty fiasco, almost exactly like the one we saw in the mid-80's, only much,much worse and far-reaching, as far as impacting the future of America.

I did not think he could do more damage in the time he has left in office, except for the death toll in Iraq continuing to rise. Evidently, I was wrong.

[lor 0]

I live in Southern California. Everyday when I'm driving my kid to school I go by large groups of Latino men, waving down cars for work. They are clean looking fellows, some with lunch boxes and tool boxes. I see the same guys everyday, this is their profession. They are hired as day laborers by painters, gardeners, contractors, handymen... some of them are quite skilled and they wouldn't be there if they didn't get the work. They negotiate their salaries on the spot and are paid in cash. If they don't agree to the money being offered, some other guy will. If they get hurt on the job, tough luck. They are an interwoven part of the economy in these parts and often the same people who are moaning and groaning about illegal immigration are the folks hiring them! I feel for everyone. The illegal immigrants are here trying to make a better life. There's no cohesive immigration policy in this country. Officially, we take virtually no low-skilled laborers from Latin American countries. I feel for the low skilled laborers who are American citizens or are here legally- their chances to make their way into the system and live the "American Dream" are very slim when they are being undercut by low cost, no benefits labor. I feel for the small business owners who are trying to stay afloat and be competitive in the market.

I don't know what the answer is but I know there are people much brighter than I who would have a few suggestions. What I do know is that demonizing these illegal immigrants, spending billions to erect giant fences (simply cartoonish), or allowing vigilante groups to patrol the deserts and mete out punishment as they see fit (last time I checked we were still claiming to be part of the civilized world) are NOT solutions to this problem.

I am a second generation Italian-American. I believe this country is better and stronger because we attract people from other countries who want to be better and stronger. There was a time when my family and the others in their Italian ghetto were seen as the scourge on society. My grandparents couldn't read or write. My grandmother died not having learned English. Two generations later, I can count among my five siblings alone, a Phd, a teacher with two Masters degrees, an RN and a very philanthropic CEO of a Fortune 500 comany. Yes, 50 years ago my grandparents may have gone to free clinics, lived in subsidized housing and applied for "relief" but all in all I think this country made a pretty good investment in us. I believe that the children of todays unskilled workers may be giving birth to our future generations most esteemed citizens. Don't they (and we) deserve our best effort in coming up with policies that make sense for everyone?

[marjon9 6]

I live in Southern California. Everyday when I'm driving my kid to school I go by large groups of Latino men, waving down cars for work. They are clean looking fellows, some with lunch boxes and tool boxes. I see the same guys everyday, this is their profession. They are hired as day laborers by painters, gardeners, contractors, handymen... some of them are quite skilled and they wouldn't be there if they didn't get the work. They negotiate their salaries on the spot and are paid in cash. If they don't agree to the money being offered, some other guy will. If they get hurt on the job, tough luck. They are an interwoven part of the economy in these parts and often the same people who are moaning and groaning about illegal immigration are the folks hiring them! I feel for everyone. The illegal immigrants are here trying to make a better life. There's no cohesive immigration policy in this country. Officially, we take virtually no low-skilled laborers from Latin American countries. I feel for the low skilled laborers who are American citizens or are here legally- their chances to make their way into the system and live the "American Dream" are very slim when they are being undercut by low cost, no benefits labor. I feel for the small business owners who are trying to stay afloat and be competitive in the market.

I don't know what the answer is but I know there are people much brighter than I who would have a few suggestions. What I do know is that demonizing these illegal immigrants, spending billions to erect giant fences (simply cartoonish), or allowing vigilante groups to patrol the deserts and mete out punishment as they see fit (last time I checked we were still claiming to be part of the civilized world) are NOT solutions to this problem.

I am a second generation Italian-American. I believe this country is better and stronger because we attract people from other countries who want to be better and stronger. There was a time when my family and the others in their Italian ghetto were seen as the scourge on society. My grandparents couldn't read or write. My grandmother died not having learned English. Two generations later, I can count among my five siblings alone, a Phd, a teacher with two Masters degrees, an RN and a very philanthropic CEO of a Fortune 500 comany. Yes, 50 years ago my grandparents may have gone to free clinics, lived in subsidized housing and applied for "relief" but all in all I think this country made a pretty good investment in us. I believe that the children of todays unskilled workers may be giving birth to our future generations most esteemed citizens. Don't they (and we) deserve our best effort in coming up with policies that make sense for everyone?

You make some good points. I grew up in Southern California also and worked with undocumented Mexican immigrants in the restaurant business for many years. Made some good friends in the process.

I think there is no doubt that in the long run, the offspring of undocumented immigrants can make great contributions to the country. But I think the problem we are facing now is that many people feel there may be no time to wait for this anymore. Many people experience this problem as an emergency. So it's hard to think of long term, big picture points of view. As a comparison, by way of example, it is not possible to make plans for creative room additions to your home when the house is on fire. The first thing you need to do is put out the fire.

I definitely do not have all the answers, or know all the facts, but I do get the feeling that many people experience the immigrant situation as an emergency that has to be dealt with immediately.

But I have no doubt that you are right, many people making a tremendous contribution today came from very humble roots, including from roots of undocumented immigrants.

[*JASMINE* 1]

undocumented immigrants.

I like that you call them this, instead of "illegal aliens". To me, calling them illegals is like calling a Katrina victim a refugee. When Katrina happened, many of them were very offended when people started calling them refugees.

Once, my husband and I were joking, and he called me an illegal alien (mind you, the only link I have to undocumented immigrants is that I am hispanic). I was speechless. This to me was worse then any racist term you could come up with for a person of hispanic descent. I guess I view it this way because, as LOR pointed out, so many people have demonized these immigrants using this term.

I don't remember what we were joking about, but I did tell him not to ever call me that name again.

[BJean 16]

The words "illegal alien" may be distasteful to you because of the connotations - not just the words per se. But to me, calling them undocumented immigrants doesn't feel right. To say they are immigrants is to say they have immigrated. How can that be correct since in no way have they legally immigrated - they are not actually new citizens of this country. They are squatters maybe? Of course if you use the term, immigrant, simply to describe one who has migrated north, then I guess it is accurate. I'm sure this will be wildly unpopular for me to post this, but I think many Americans prefer the term "illegal alien" to "undocumented immigrant" because it is such an emotionally charged issue.

[*JASMINE* 1]

The words "illegal alien" may be distasteful to you because of the connotations - not just the words per se. But to me, calling them undocumented immigrants doesn't feel right. To say they are immigrants is to say they have immigrated. How can that be correct since in no way have they legally immigrated - they are not actually new citizens of this country. They are squatters maybe? Of course if you use the term, immigrant, simply to describe one who has migrated north, then I guess it is accurate. I'm sure this will be wildly unpopular for me to post this, but I think many Americans prefer the term "illegal alien" to "undocumented immigrant" because it is such an emotionally charged issue.

Yes, this is why it is distasteful to me. It's not the words themselves. Maybe saying they are illegal immigrants, instead of aliens would be a little better?

I've never heard them compared to squatters, but I guess you can say this is true. But then not all of them would be squatters, since some of them do work under the table and pay rent.

I mean, I know they're working, otherwise so many people wouldn't be upset about them taking all of the jobs and keeping the wages down. Which of course, I don't agree they should be doing.

Yes, I agree that a majority of people would prefer to call them illegal aliens as this defines the anger they feel towards the current situation.

Maybe we can come up with a name for the employers who employ them and the government who offers them so many services? And I don't mean that in a condescending or sarcastic way. I really would like to come up with some more appropriate names for the enablers, as well.

And how is it that these people are able to get those services? I've never been able to understand how this happens. If we could develop some type of national social security number verification system, which would flag multiple persons using the same number, that would be awesome.

[BJean 16]

Jasmine- We the people of the United States are the ones who are responsible for the vast numbers of people migrating to our country. It isn't their fault that we have made it so attractive for them to be here illegally. That's one reason calling them unflattering names seems so unfair. But they are here illegally and they aren't natives.

Just like Hurricane Katrina victims, they don't deserve our scorn. But it is still a huge drain on resources. And as for the illegal immigrants, it is hugely unfair to all of the people who have spent the money, done all the work and jumped the hurdles to become legal citizens of the U.S.

But I'm stating the obvious. I just wanted you to know that I do not blame illegal aliens - or undocumented immigrants - for their plight.

[foodstampchamp 3]

Just saw it on the news.

Jerry Falwell is dead????

ABORTIONS AND GAY MARRIAGES FOR EVERYONE!!!!!! Just teasing for those of you who will be offended by that. I just thought it was funny.

[*JASMINE* 1]

Jasmine- We the people of the United States are the ones who are responsible for the vast numbers of people migrating to our country. It isn't their fault that we have made it so attractive for them to be here illegally. That's one reason calling them unflattering names seems so unfair. But they are here illegally and they aren't natives.

Just like Hurricane Katrina victims, they don't deserve our scorn. But it is still a huge drain on resources. And as for the illegal immigrants, it is hugely unfair to all of the people who have spent the money, done all the work and jumped the hurdles to become legal citizens of the U.S.

But I'm stating the obvious. I just wanted you to know that I do not blame illegal aliens - or undocumented immigrants - for their plight.

You are right. It is a slap in the face for those who come here the right way. It's definitely a slap in the face for us as tax payers.

As I've said before, I am usually more of a lurker. This thread has really brought me out of my shell. Not to get off topic, but let me tell you, participating in the RnR section really has helped me stay away from the fridge. I could never see the appeal, but it has done wonders to help decrease my appetite, LOL.