I am very offended by the B**love post

[Carlene 12]

I don't know, Carlene. I see his point. He has the right to feel as he does, just as you have the right to feel as you do. You can't really argue how a person feels. However, I don't think he meant his comment in a literal way and I think you know that.

You're right....people can't help the way they feel. If he is almost as offended by pedophilia as by prayer in school, then that's the way he feels. But it was an insensitive comparison. Just as it would be insensitive of me to say that I find religious discrimination almost as offensive as slavery. The two things are WORLDS apart. There is no reasonable comparison to be drawn, unless you are an avowed racist.

The fact that people have a right to express themselves in no way relieves them of basic social responsibilities. I bash George Bush all the time. But there is a line I would not cross. I would not say, for example, that the torture of Iraqi prisoners was almost as evil as 9/11. Same thing goes for child molestation, IMHO. It is not a suitable topic for jokes or flippant, off-the-cuff hyperbole, just as the holocaust would not be.

I had my say. I stated that I was offended by Marjon's comparison and that I felt he owed the victims of child molestation who read his words and were offended by them an apology. He responded, basically, that he owed us nothing. That he could say whatever he liked, within the rules of LBT. And so he can. That may make him correct, but it doesn't make him right. And there is a difference.

[marjon9 6]

I had my say. I stated that I was offended by Marjon's comparison and that I felt he owed the victims of child molestation who read his words and were offended by them an apology. He responded, basically, that he owed us nothing. That he could say whatever he liked, within the rules of LBT. And so he can. That may make him correct, but it doesn't make him right. And there is a difference.

Carlene, on at least two occassions on this forum you have made the comment that "men are pigs (present company excluded)." I've posted them below. I'm very offended by those comments. It makes no difference whether you added the disclaimer that present company is excluded. It is obvious that you truly believe, as a general rule, that "men are pigs." I think you owe everyone on the forum an apology for that. I'll just wait here until I see that apology.

I am so mad at my DH's friend, Mr. P. Today he e-mailed ME pics of him and his live-in girlfriend!!! Of course, it started another argument between DH and myself. I think it was a totally in-your-face thing for him to do, knowing, as he does, how I feel about their relationship. DH is afraid that I am going to "destroy" his 40 year friendship with Mr. P. I have no intention of doing any such thing. I was even civil when Mr P came to my house a few weeks ago. But this was just so not cool of him. I did not respond to the e-mail. Men are pigs (present company excluded).

====================

I told DH that this whole thing makes me sad, but more than that, it makes me feel terribly vulnerable. Mr P was the absolute best husband I ever knew. If he is capable of this, then it could happen to any of us. My friend Alan is right....men are pigs. (Present company excluded, of course.) I'm just thankful that Mrs P's state of mental confusion/drug-induced bliss prevents her from knowing what a creep the love of her life has turned out to be.

===================

The actual fact is, I could not care less about your apology. I think you really do have issues with anger toward men, but this is a public forum, and people have a right to vent and use hyperbole without being called upon to apologize every time someone is "offended."

In my case in particular, since it is so obvious from my posts on the topic that I do not in any way diminish the ugliness and horror of pedophilia, your insistence on an apology is particularly disingenuous.

I just want to say that I'm done with this thread if the topic of discussion continues to be "Marjon." If people want to talk about something else, I'm there.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I had my say. I stated that I was offended by Marjon's comparison and that I felt he owed the victims of child molestation who read his words and were offended by them an apology. He responded, basically, that he owed us nothing. That he could say whatever he liked, within the rules of LBT. And so he can. That may make him correct, but it doesn't make him right. And there is a difference.

We also have to remember that we don't know what the personal experiences are of another. We don't know what Marjon has experienced regarding religion and he may well be justified in his thinking. We don't know.

My Dad went to Catholic school in the 40s. He was beaten on a regular basis by the sweet nuns. When he was in grade school if he didn't memorize a bible bit exactly right he was beaten with sticks, paddles, rods, twigs, and other assorted items. This happened day after day after day. The worse the beatings became the worse his ability to memorize. He was so fearful of doing something wrong he couldn't focus on memorizing the silly crap for fear of more beatings. Can you imagine being 8 years old and getting a word wrong in something you had to memorize and having to drop your pants, bend over to grab your ankles in front of the class, while the nun spanked you with a paddle until your butt bled?

He used to come home with bloody and bruised hands. If he got an answer wrong he had to hold his hands flat on his desk while the nice nun beat the hell out of his little hands with a ruler. He had scars from those beatings as an old man.

My Dad happened to be an alcoholic. When he was 60 he had an AA meeting he had to go to as he was taking a newbie that was court ordered to go to that particular meeting. He had to go. The meeting happened to be at the very school he was beaten and humiliated by the nuns. At *60* he drove up the drive to the school and started getting physically ill. His entire body was shaking. The memories started flooding in.

Days before my Dad died 2 years ago he was sitting in his chair and I walked in the room. He was quite upset. I asked what was going on, he explained that he was just praying to his angel, an angel he named Pete. My Dad didn't feel worthy enough to pray to God so he would pray to Pete and ask Pete to pray on his behalf. He was praying and asking permission not to go to hell but heaven instead. The nuns convinced him he wasn't worthy of anything more than hell. He STILL believed this at 70 years old! Later, as he was actively dying he turned to me, looked at me in sheer horror, his eyes glazed over and he died. That moment still haunts me to this day. It makes me angry that a bunch of pissy, sex starved, bitchy, good for nothing, evil, scum sucking, power hungry women who called themselves nuns did this to him in the name of gawd. He feared dying because he was so afraid of hell.

The issue here isn't just a bunch of kids reciting bible bits in school. It goes much much deeper than that for many of us.

Sorry, call me anything you wish. I'm with Marjon on this one. Go ahead, call me flippant or anything else that trips your trigger. You are looking at the superficial issue. Others are looking at the issue a little deeper. Oh, it may not be PC to be honest, but screw PC. Let's get honest and let's really get to the deeper issues if we are going to call this a debate section. It is easy to judge another for their views. The key here is to dig a little deeper and understand WHY someone feels as they do.

[KariK 0]

What you describe is physical / emotional abuse, not prayer in my oppinion. And I think if it had been said that physical / emotional abuse is as bad as sexual molestation well that would not have been considered flippant. Your poor dad, I didn't know him but I really feel bad for him.

[Wheetsin 714]

BB, I don't think there's any doubt what drove your father to alcoholism. The church's love has shadowed more than one life. My mother experienced something similar. She's left handed, and perhaps it was her particular school or perhaps it was a belief that lingered in the Midwest, who knows - but she was told that being left handed was a sign of the devil. So they would tie her hand behind her back and force her to work right handed, while her dominant hand would lose sensation due to being pointed up and because of the tightness of the rope. And when her penmanship was not at par, they would beat her knuckles with a ruler. Or if she was caught using her left hand, they would make her (bear with me as I try to describe this without the benefit of visuals) kneel in front of the class with her arms stretched straight out to either side, palms up. Kind of like a T shape. Then they would stack encyclopaedias on her hands, and beat her on the butt with a paddle if her arms dropped. She was told repeatedly this was the church's love, trying to protect her from the devil. Have you ever seen The Magdalene Sisters? I watched that with her, and she couldn't even keep her eyes open during some of the scenes.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

What you describe is physical / emotional abuse, not prayer in my oppinion. And I think if it had been said that physical / emotional abuse is as bad as sexual molestation well that would not have been considered flippant. Your poor dad, I didn't know him but I really feel bad for him.

But Kari... It was religion in school. That is my whole point. People that want religion in school make many of us look at them with a raised eyebrow. It's all about control. Isn't "control" what rape is about?

I think the issue here isn't regarding the superficial view of comparing religion in school/rape of a child. It is valid to see why the person feels as they do.

I don't consider the two as being the same thing. But I do, in some ways, consider them equally bad merely in their own way. I don't like the concept of that kind of control over anyone, for any reason. If one is wrong, they are all wrong. The pedophile wants control over a child for a short period of time. Religion wants control over a child for life.

The Christians aren't going to see the point. They think prayer is good, rape is bad. *I* think that kind of control over another, and especially a child, is bad bad bad. It's a horror and should never be permitted.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Or if she was caught using her left hand, they would make her (bear with me as I try to describe this without the benefit of visuals) kneel in front of the class with her arms stretched straight out to either side, palms up. Kind of like a T shape. Then they would stack encyclopaedias on her hands, and beat her on the butt with a paddle if her arms dropped. She was told repeatedly this was the church's love, trying to protect her from the devil. Have you ever seen The Magdalene Sisters? I watched that with her, and she couldn't even keep her eyes open during some of the scenes.

Some people don't see the harm in religion in schools. Others who have experienced horrors or have loved one that experiences horrors in school. We know how far it can and does go.

I fully admit that I resent the hell out of organized religion. That does not mean I do not respect the rights of people to believe anything they choose. But organized religion... it's control of the masses and that is never healthy for society. I don't think a day has gone by since my Dad died that I haven't seen the look on his face as he died. He was trying to hard to live so he wouldn't fry in hell. And there wasn't a thing I could do for him. Nothing. He isn't the only person I have watched die that way. People die that way every single day, scared to death of dying due to a fear of the hell they know they will be heading. It's just sickening and I sometimes I want to scream at these people and tell them to wake the hell up! Open your eyes! Get a little reality check!

If people are too afraid not to believe, fine. That is theirs to deal with in this world. But don't even suggest bringing that stuff into public schools. I don't fight the concept of "god" in the pledge, "god" on our money, etc. But force that crap on innocent children in a public school and watch me come out fighting. We all have to learn to pick and choose our battles and this is one of mine.

There is a bigger picture here. Control over innocents is wrong, period.

I am sorry your Mom had to go through that. Being young and in school is hard enough without the adults doing those things. What was wrong with those people??? I don't think I'll ever be able to wrap my brain around the concept.

[Daisalana 33]

The Christians aren't going to see the point. They think prayer is good, rape is bad. *I* think that kind of control over another, and especially a child, is bad bad bad. It's a horror and should never be permitted.

Just want to beat you over the head so to speak, MOST Christians may not see the point. I do.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Just want to beat you over the head so to speak, MOST Christians may not see the point. I do.

You are most correct! Point well taken.

[Carlene 12]

Carlene, on at least two occassions on this forum you have made the comment that "men are pigs (present company excluded)." I've posted them below. I'm very offended by those comments. It makes no difference whether you added the disclaimer that present company is excluded. It is obvious that you truly believe, as a general rule, that "men are pigs." I think you owe everyone on the forum an apology for that. I'll just wait here until I see that apology.

Of course....although it isn't true that I believe most men are "pigs". I love men. I married three of them and gave birth to three more (actually not....one of those is adopted). It's my friend Alan who keeps telling me that men are pigs. Maybe I thought, coming from a man, that it would be less offensive. Or maybe it's the pigs who should take exception. I don't know. At any rate, if you were truly "very offended" by my post, which compared a philandering husband who kicked his ailing wife to the curb after 40+ years of marriage so he could screw the care-giver to a pig, then please accept my deepest apologies.

[Carlene 12]

I think you really do have issues with anger toward men,

The only man I have anger issues with is dead (thankfully). It was the uncle who fondled me when I was a child, about 10 years old. I have REAL anger issues toward that SOB, I assure you.

[green 6]

We also have to remember that we don't know what the personal experiences are of another. We don't know what Marjon has experienced regarding religion and he may well be justified in his thinking. We don't know.

My Dad went to Catholic school in the 40s. He was beaten on a regular basis by the sweet nuns. When he was in grade school if he didn't memorize a bible bit exactly right he was beaten with sticks, paddles, rods, twigs, and other assorted items. This happened day after day after day. The worse the beatings became the worse his ability to memorize. He was so fearful of doing something wrong he couldn't focus on memorizing the silly crap for fear of more beatings. Can you imagine being 8 years old and getting a word wrong in something you had to memorize and having to drop your pants, bend over to grab your ankles in front of the class, while the nun spanked you with a paddle until your butt bled?

He used to come home with bloody and bruised hands. If he got an answer wrong he had to hold his hands flat on his desk while the nice nun beat the hell out of his little hands with a ruler. He had scars from those beatings as an old man.

My Dad happened to be an alcoholic. When he was 60 he had an AA meeting he had to go to as he was taking a newbie that was court ordered to go to that particular meeting. He had to go. The meeting happened to be at the very school he was beaten and humiliated by the nuns. At *60* he drove up the drive to the school and started getting physically ill. His entire body was shaking. The memories started flooding in.

Days before my Dad died 2 years ago he was sitting in his chair and I walked in the room. He was quite upset. I asked what was going on, he explained that he was just praying to his angel, an angel he named Pete. My Dad didn't feel worthy enough to pray to God so he would pray to Pete and ask Pete to pray on his behalf. He was praying and asking permission not to go to hell but heaven instead. The nuns convinced him he wasn't worthy of anything more than hell. He STILL believed this at 70 years old! Later, as he was actively dying he turned to me, looked at me in sheer horror, his eyes glazed over and he died. That moment still haunts me to this day. It makes me angry that a bunch of pissy, sex starved, bitchy, good for nothing, evil, scum sucking, power hungry women who called themselves nuns did this to him in the name of gawd. He feared dying because he was so afraid of hell.

The issue here isn't just a bunch of kids reciting bible bits in school. It goes much much deeper than that for many of us.

Sorry, call me anything you wish. I'm with Marjon on this one. Go ahead, call me flippant or anything else that trips your trigger. You are looking at the superficial issue. Others are looking at the issue a little deeper. Oh, it may not be PC to be honest, but screw PC. Let's get honest and let's really get to the deeper issues if we are going to call this a debate section. It is easy to judge another for their views. The key here is to dig a little deeper and understand WHY someone feels as they do.

This is an interesting and terribly, terribly sad story.

I belong to an atheist website, one which has made the examination of the Bible its particular mandate, and there are some serious academics who are members along with gadflies such as myself. The membership of this site is large and some of the active members do choose to tell their stories of how they came about to become atheists. And some of these stories do include experiences of being exposed, either they themselves directly or members of their immediate families, to abuse - usually psychological, but occasionally physical/sexual - dealt out in the name of God and a perceived belief system, a belief system which is claimed by the abuser(s) to be both benign and, moreover, good for us!

And then there are those atheists who live and work in the Bible Belt who have told the other members of this site that they dare not mention their disbelief in public because their businesses will suffer, their children will be ostracized and their homes might be vandalised.

What we as atheists believe we believe with the same sureness and passion as you theists believe. We believe that there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of a God, let alone the Judeo-Christian-Islamic construct. We see no reason why the Christian version of God should carry more weight than the Muslim version or any other varient on theist belief.

Moreover we see that there has been and continues to be a lot of justification for human suffering and death carried out in the name of this human idea or fantasy of God.

The horrors of 9/11 were carried out in God's name. The horrors of the Holy Crusades were carried out in God's name. Slaughters of perceived infidels were carried out in God's name. The practice of slavery in America was justified at the time by certain passages of the Bible. Fundamentalist Christians have vilified Catholics, fellow Christians, citing God's name! The barbarities which have taken place in Northern Ireland were conducted in God's name. There are of course many more examples which one can site.

While there is a basic code of human morality embedded, I believe, in the teachings of all religions, these can be easily perverted or twisted in order to excuse vicious behaviour. I believe that this was the point which Marjon was attempting to make when he posted this website. His point was about hypocrisy - and hypocrisy is all the more frightening when it is blind to itself, is it not? One is safer with a cynic than with a fanatic.

[396power 2]

Your post motivates me to make one clarification. That is, I have absolutely no animosity toward "Christians," or anyone else. I single out conservative Christians in my posts because, in my experience, conservative Christians are the ones who seek to use legislation and constitutional amendments in an effort to force others to live by a moral code that they believe in, in such areas as prayer in school, abortion, and gay rights, etc. That is what these threads have been about from the beginning.

Anyone who happens to be a Christian is perfectly fine with me as long as they leave me and the rest of the world alone to live our lives by the moral code that works for us.

Oh and liberals do not try to impose thier ideals of "moral code" in legislation. Get real! We need laws man if anyone has forced thier "moral code" on anyone it would be the liberals. And I'll show you where. We used to have no abortion and now we do. We used to send convicts to prison were they had to work for the state. Now we give them basketball and cable tv. We used to have capital punish punishment for people that kill. Now more and more states are doing away with capital punishment.( oh you killed some on well Bob Barker what do we have for them well we have a nice room with a bed and all you can eat, no bills and all the cable tv, weights, basketball and cigaretts you want.) yeah we are the ones imposing our "MORAL CODE" get a grip.

[396power 2]

You guy's want censorship. Well wait becuase the post I made above will bring Alexander running.

[396power 2]

And Carlene this is one time that we are finally on the same side, scary isn't it.