Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

396power · May 22, 2007

It is truly amazing to me that a man has to get his wife to sign off on him getting a vasectomy. But she does not have to tell the father of the baby, her parents or anbody to get an abortion. Even if she is married.

Carlene · May 22, 2007

They want us to join in their celebration of a ban on partial birth abortions, but we know what the true final objective is. We must never let it happen, and laurend, make no mistake about it, they want the rights of women to make these personal medical decisions taken away, across the board. No exceptions.

If "they" means everyone who supports the ban on partial birth abortion, then you are very mistaken. Many people - myself included - feel that abortion is not right, but the decision to abort or not isn't ours unless it's our body that's pregnant....late term abortions excepted.

Once an unborn baby is viable, I think it's entitled to some protection under the law. And it is, in fact, afforded that protection in all circumstances except abortion. As many have pointed out, if you kill a pregnant woman you can be charged with a double homicide. If the mother survives and the baby does not - even if she was on her way to an abortion clinic when you killed her - you can still be charged for the death of the unborn child. So society already has stepped up to the plate with regard to rights of the unborn. It's only the mom who has the right to kill an unborn child - no one else. I understand that. But mom needs to decide early on if she wants to do that or not, instead of waiting until the 11th hour. Either that or all women who kill their kids should be automatically exonerated. If we are going to allow abortion right up to the moment of birth, then we might as well go whole hog. Retroactive abortion.....for the woman who can't quite make up her mind.

Alexandra · May 22, 2007

It is truly amazing to me that a man has to get his wife to sign off on him getting a vasectomy.

Where did you get that from? I'm not aware of any such regulation. Perhaps doctors seek the spouse's signature on consent forms to protect themselves from litigation, but it most certainly is not a law.

Carlene · May 22, 2007

It is truly amazing to me that a man has to get his wife to sign off on him getting a vasectomy. But she does not have to tell the father of the baby, her parents or anbody to get an abortion. Even if she is married.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think it's the doctor's discretion, not a requirement.

My DH's surgeon required that I sign. My brother got a vasectomy without his wife's knowledge or permission. She filed for divorce....that's how mad she was.

BJean · May 22, 2007

FunnyDuddy: I was not angry when I made my post. I just have very strong convictions. Just as you do. As you said, we can agree to disagee. However that's absolutely not the end of the debate. As long as there are people who wish to impose their will on women with respect to the right for her to make her own decisions having to do with her reproductive organs, I will continue to argue my case. No matter where I choose to do it, I believe it is a worthwhile effort on my part.

Green said it very well. She and Mark and laurend and a few others give me faith in humankind. It's what helps keep me sane when this debate rears its' ugly head.

BJean · May 22, 2007

I just wonder Carlene, how men would react to our government or courts deciding that they get to intervene in a man's choice to have a vasectomy. What if the government decided that all men had to have a vasectomy? It could be from overpopulation or disease or some other reason...they had to submit to a vasectomy and forego having children even though they would be a wonderful, loving and caring father and it was something they felt they were designed by God to do.

green · May 22, 2007

Green was so secure in her desire to never, ever have a child that she woulda been quite content to be sterilized. The trouble she encountered was finding anyone who would do the necessary work prior to her having had a couple of kidlets and reaching a certain age. Indeed had she found a friendly doc she never would have been stuck having to have an abortion in the first place. This is how she found herself knocked up while she living in France in her early 30s.

gadgetlady · May 22, 2007

I just wonder Carlene, how men would react to our government or courts deciding that they get to intervene in a man's choice to have a vasectomy. What if the government decided that all men had to have a vasectomy? It could be from overpopulation or disease or some other reason...they had to submit to a vasectomy and forego having children even though they would be a wonderful, loving and caring father and it was something they felt they were designed by God to do.

There is a HUGE difference between birth control and abortion. Birth control is pregnancy prevention. Abortion stops a beating heart. As far as I'm concerned, use birth control to your heart's content; once you conceive a child, there's another life involved.

I know it offends your feminist sensibilities, but there really is no parallel for men on this issue. Men will never have the opportunity to carry children within their bodies. It's not discrimination against women. It's just the way things are.

gadgetlady · May 22, 2007

Green was so secure in her desire to never, ever have a child that she woulda been quite content to be sterilized. The trouble she encountered was finding anyone who would do the necessary work prior to her having had a couple of kidlets and reaching a certain age. Indeed had she found a friendly doc she never would have been stuck having to have an abortion in the first place. This is how she found herself knocked up while she living in France in her early 30s.

See that, to me, is utterly ridiculous. It's your body; you should have had the right to be sterilized if you wanted to. I think it's criminal that no one would do that for you.

Let me ask you a question, green. Did you agonize over your decision to abort? Was it a harrowing experience for you (other than the painful part of it that you've described on this board)? Or did you just know you didn't want to be pregnant and once you found out you were, made the decision to abort and did it?

Carlene · May 22, 2007

See that, to me, is utterly ridiculous. It's your body; you should have had the right to be sterilized if you wanted to. I think it's criminal that no one would do that for you.

I agree. How condescending....the very idea that you can't possibly know your own mind!

BJean · May 22, 2007

You mean there's a difference between abortion and a vasectomy? Really? No duh.

Of course men can't carry babies internally. Of course men can't go into labor and deliver a baby. They can choose with whom they have sex. I doubt if there are very many cases documented where a woman forced a man, by gunpoint or otherwise, to have sex with her. Which is another fine reason why men have no business making decisions for women who can carry babies and who can be compelled to have sex against their will.

Both questions, compulsory vasectomies and compulsory childbirth are not decisions that should be controlled by the government. Period. End of story.

Think up all the horrid, heinous bloody visions of dead babies you want. It is a woman's right to make decisions about her own body just as it is a man's right to make decisions about his own body. You can't get around the fact that although sperm is the potential for life, it is not a life in and of itself. Nor is a fertilized egg. But even if it were, it still would not be your place to decide for me if I must develop a baby in my womb just because one of my eggs was, against my will, fertilized.

green · May 22, 2007

See that, to me, is utterly ridiculous. It's your body; you should have had the right to be sterilized if you wanted to. I think it's criminal that no one would do that for you.
Let me ask you a question, green. Did you agonize over your decision to abort? Was it a harrowing experience for you (other than the painful part of it that you've described on this board)? Or did you just know you didn't want to be pregnant and once you found out you were, made the decision to abort and did it?

No, the decision to abort was not a difficult one for me. I knew I didn't want to be pregnant, I was terrified of pregnancy and childbirth in fact almost to the point of this being a phobia, and so I made the arrangements to abort ASAP. Because the abortion was being performed in a hospital under a general anaesthetic I asked (once again) if the doctor would tie my tubes seeing as she was going to be in the general area so to speak. She was shocked. A year later I found out why. Sterilization procedures are illegal in France which is where I had my abortion.

green · May 22, 2007

I agree. How condescending....the very idea that you can't possibly know your own mind!

And yes, it was condescending of doctors to deny me the right to have my tubes tied. I have always known that I never wanted children and as I have just mentioned I found the idea of pregnancy and childbirth utterly terrifying as well. The argument which was always used was that I was too young - I was in my 20s when I first started asking about tubal ligation - and that I might well change my mind. I suspect that the notion that there are women who do not wish to participate in this aspect of life was incomprehensible to them.

Anyhow, this is why I was rigorous about using birth control. My feelings of horror and panic when I found myself pregnant were intense.

BJean · May 22, 2007

Wow Green. That seems wierd to me. Abortion being legal and sterilization being illegal. Doesn't seem congruous. I think they should both be legal, of course.

FunnyDuddies · May 22, 2007

You mean there's a difference between abortion and a vasectomy? Really? No duh.
Of course men can't carry babies internally. Of course men can't go into labor and deliver a baby. They can choose with whom they have sex. I doubt if there are very many cases documented where a woman forced a man, by gunpoint or otherwise, to have sex with her. Which is another fine reason why men have no business making decisions for women who can carry babies and who can be compelled to have sex against their will.

Both questions, compulsory vasectomies and compulsory childbirth are not decisions that should be controlled by the government. Period. End of story.

Think up all the horrid, heinous bloody visions of dead babies you want. It is a woman's right to make decisions about her own body just as it is a man's right to make decisions about his own body. You can't get around the fact that although sperm is the potential for life, it is not a life in and of itself. Nor is a fertilized egg. But even if it were, it still would not be your place to decide for me if I must develop a baby in my womb just because one of my eggs was, against my will, fertilized.

So you are more hung up on the issue of rape? Or abortion in general?