Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

[anonemouse 1]

the word atheist implies that you don't believe in anything,

Actually, you are wrong. Atheist literally means that someone lacks belief in a creator or a god or gods, not that they don't believe in anything.

[anonemouse 1]

Here's my thoughts on is the fetus considered a living being from conception or is it just a blob of tissue.....do you consider a virus a living thing?

Actually, a virus is not a living organism. It doesn't metabolize, and that is one of the basic requirements of "life." That's why it's usually not a good idea to take antibiotics when you have a virus. They are designed to kill living organisms, which viruses are not.

[marlynncreel 1]

The heart begins to beat and circulate blood at 28 days of pregnancy. How's that for "is it a living being"? Thanks for bringing that up.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

As these debates go back and forth, the point is clearly established that well-meaning, intelligent and compassionate people have different points of view on whether a fetus is a human being, and all other related issues. It is clear that people disagree about this.

The thing that no one will discuss is: Why does one group get to create legislation and establish criminal penalties for everyone? The answer to this question cannot be "because a fetus is a human being, and therefore abortion is killing a baby." That can't be the answer because that is exactly what people disagree about. So, what is the answer? Why do pro-life people believe that they have a right to legislate and create criminal penalties for the well-meaning, thoughtful, intelligent and compassionate people who believe that a fetus is not a human being? Why do you have that right?

It is fair to ask the question, why not err on the side of life? But that is just a question. It does not give you the right to make the rules. Why do you believe you have the right to make the rules? Will anyone actually answer this question?

I will answer this question for ya.

Our rules are based on the beliefs of the men that founded our country, and those beliefs were based on their christian faith. So yes, many of the laws in this country are based on the christian foundation of living your own life, and caring for those who cannot care for themselves. Taking someone's life is against the law in this country, and that is based on a religious value. many who are not religious feel that lives should not be taken, but the law itself is based on a christian belief, because those who wrote the laws of this land were christian. Its why they came here, to practice freedom of religion.

If we are to follow this law, and we are erring on the side of life, then we should make abortion illegal. It is basing a law on another law that already exists. Murder is illegal. To err on the side of life means we must assume that anything with a heart beat, whether it needs to rely on someone else or not, is a life that should be protected. therefore to abort and snuff out that life would be murder.

[marjon9 6]

I don't have the right to make the rules. If I did, abortion would be illegal. We depend on judges to decide these things, and I believe in light of the factual knowledge we have about life in utero, they will eventually come down on the side of life. The more we know about the unborn, the more their humanity becomes clear. It is only a matter of time. In the interim, the more we educate people about what really is going on in the womb, the more people will choose, of their own accord and based on the vast amount of information available, to choose life.

That sounds great to me. I fully support you in your effort to educate people and change their minds. If enough people do that and continue doing it, who knows, maybe your way will eventually win the day. I support you completely in your right to do that.

As long as you understand, as you said above, that you don't have the right to make the rules for everyone.

But see, the thing is, many pro-life sorts are not so reasonable. Many believe that they do have the right to make the rules for everyone. That they have the right to take this most difficult and personal decision and decide what everybody has to do, and who has to go to jail, and who has to carry a child to term, etc. That is the part that causes, shall we say, agitation in my psyche.

But again, I appreciate very much your much more reasonable approach on that point.

[gadgetlady 4]

But see, the thing is, many pro-life sorts are not so reasonable. Many believe that they do have the right to make the rules for everyone. That they have the right to take this most difficult and personal decision and decide what everybody has to do, and who has to go to jail, and who has to carry a child to term, etc. That is the part that causes, shall we say, agitation in my psyche.

I know a lot of "pro-life sorts" and none of them believes they have the right to make the rules for everyone. If they did, they would be making the rules for everyone, which they clearly are not. They have the right to, and they do, demonstrate, try to change minds, try to influence politicians, educate people, vote their beliefs, and assist women who are facing an unplanned pregnancy. But I can't imagine how you are envisioning the manifestation of their "right to decide what everybody has to do".

I've been pro-life since high school, when I first heard of abortion (perhaps I had heard of it before, but I don't remember it). It was a no-brainer; the unborn baby is simply a younger version of the infant everyone can't wait to hold and coo at. I became an activist that very day. If I could have changed the law then, I would have. If you show a child a developing baby in utero, or an aborted baby in a glass jar, the child knows instinctively what it is -- a smaller version of himself. It is only we adults who screw it up.

[anonemouse 1]

The heart begins to beat and circulate blood at 28 days of pregnancy. How's that for "is it a living being"? Thanks for bringing that up.

But it can't be sustained. Therefore, IMO, that heart is not part of a live being. Living, yes. Alive, no.

[gadgetlady 4]

Living, yes. Alive, no.

Huh???????????

[anonemouse 1]

Huh???????????

Come on, we've discussed this enough that you know very well what I'm talking about. I know I've talked to you about it before on one of the other threads. "Living" and "alive" are two very different concepts. Joe Blow attached to a respirator and on life support is "living," but he has no semblance of a "life" that makes him "alive." Does someone have thoughts? Does someone able to have a favorite color or movie? Is someone able to sustain their own life? Does someone make moral judgements? THOSE are parts of being "alive."

[marjon9 6]

I will answer this question for ya.

Our rules are based on the beliefs of the men that founded our country, and those beliefs were based on their christian faith. So yes, many of the laws in this country are based on the christian foundation of living your own life, and caring for those who cannot care for themselves. Taking someone's life is against the law in this country, and that is based on a religious value. many who are not religious feel that lives should not be taken, but the law itself is based on a christian belief, because those who wrote the laws of this land were christian. Its why they came here, to practice freedom of religion.

If we are to follow this law, and we are erring on the side of life, then we should make abortion illegal. It is basing a law on another law that already exists. Murder is illegal. To err on the side of life means we must assume that anything with a heart beat, whether it needs to rely on someone else or not, is a life that should be protected. therefore to abort and snuff out that life would be murder.

I can only conclude that you are not willing to answer the question.

I really do understand that you believe abortion is murder. But the whole dispute here is that other people do not believe abortion is murder. The question I asked is, why do you get to be the one to decide. You answer that question by saying "because abortion is murder." Are you truly not able to see the circular nature of your reasoning?

And I understand that you believe that we should "err on the side of life." But other people do not believe that an abortion takes a life. So these other people believe that they are "erring on the side of life" by putting their own life first. Pro choice people do not believe that they are going against the founders of the country, etc., by making the decision to have an abortion. I realize you disagree. But my question is: why do you get to be the one to decide? You answer that question by saying "because we need to err on the side of life." This is clearly not answering the question. It is simply a circular answer that assumes that you are correct without answering the question. So, I must repeat. Will someone please answer the question.

Why do you get to be the one to decide these questions for everyone else?

[gadgetlady 4]

Does someone have thoughts? Does someone able to have a favorite color or movie? Is someone able to sustain their own life? Does someone make moral judgements? THOSE are parts of being "alive."

Then an infant is not alive.

[anonemouse 1]

Then an infant is not alive.

Yeah, they are. They can sustain their own lives. They don't need someone around to breath for them or to make their heart beat. They may not be able to feed themselves, but they can sustain life.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

I can only conclude that you are not willing to answer the question.

I really do understand that you believe abortion is murder. But the whole dispute here is that other people do not believe abortion is murder. The question I asked is, why do you get to be the one to decide. You answer that question by saying "because abortion is murder." Are you truly not able to see the circular nature of your reasoning?

And I understand that you believe that we should "err on the side of life." But other people do not believe that an abortion takes a life. So these other people believe that they are "erring on the side of life" by putting their own life first. Pro choice people do not believe that they are going against the founders of the country, etc., by making the decision to have an abortion. I realize you disagree. But my question is: why do you get to be the one to decide? You answer that question by saying "because we need to err on the side of life." This is clearly not answering the question. It is simply a circular answer that assumes that you are correct without answering the question. So, I must repeat. Will someone please answer the question.

Why do you get to be the one to decide these questions for everyone else?

Ah, I was mistaken in the question you were asking. I apologize.

Ok, what makes me think i have a right to decide? Because I am a registered voter, and if enough of my ilk get together and vote a specific way, or vote people into office that we agree with the decisions they will make, then we have the ability to change the law. That is just pure democracy. I am not a dictator, and cannot make decisions or laws by myself, but i can talk to a lot of people, try to have them see my point of view, and then as a group we can vote into power the people we believe will make the right decisions in our stead. That is all anyone can do. Laws are laws, and sadly, to me, abortion is legal. But i hope to continue to work towards changing that some day.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

lauren, what about anyone who is put under for surgery. they need to rely on machines while in surgery to live. does this mean that during this time they are not alive? with your reasoning it does. any time anyone is not breathing or being able to sustain their own life and relying on anyone else is at that point just being viral.

[gadgetlady 4]

Yeah, they are. They can sustain their own lives. They don't need someone around to breath for them or to make their heart beat. They may not be able to feed themselves, but they can sustain life.

So then none of the other criteria you mentioned is applicable? Having thoughts, having a favorite color or movie, the ability to make moral judgments? The only question is do they breathe and have a heart beat? THAT determines life?