Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

[gadgetlady 4]

But what, exactly, is your point? These things might all be attributed to the social pressure these women experienced before and after their abortions, guilt feelings from hearing that they are sinners, many other external factors.

I don't think anyone can be made to feel guilty for something that isn't wrong. No one can make me feel guilty for getting banded, for having short hair, or for buying a red car -- because there's nothing wrong with any of those things. They can yell and scream that I'm a sinner until they're blue in the face, but I still will feel no guilt. If there is no moral problem with abortion, no one would feel any guilt -- regardless of who tells them they're a sinner.

I also think it's sad that people write off a whole category of women who are experiencing real, true suffering just because some groups choose to believe PAS doesn't exist. It's real for a lot of women.

[Alexandra 55]

Actually, no. I was just responding to laurend's link to an article claiming that it doesn't exist. (BTW, the American Academy of Family Physicians believes it does)

I'm glad to hear that. As for whether it's a "real" syndrome or not, well, there are lots of things that are now described in medical literature that only a very few people actually suffer. And as with all psychological maladies, pinpointing a single cause is highly suspect.

I said I'd never met one in real life. You and green (and I can't remember if there's anyone else on this board) are the first women I've ever "met" who've claimed they didn't suffer (I'm not questioning your claim, BTW).

Really? Then you clearly don't hang out in the same places I do. I have several friends and acquaintances who have had abortions in all sorts of life circumstances, and not one of them has ever said she suffered because of it. Ever.

Perhaps that's because the culture in my part of the country doesn't vilify abortions or the women who have them.

[anonemouse 1]

Actually, no. I was just responding to laurend's link to an article claiming that it doesn't exist. (BTW, the American Academy of Family Physicians believes it does)

Well, according to the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association, it doesn't exist. And I would think that they would be the ones who would know. Do I think that there are women out there who do have psychological effects after an abortion? Of course, but that doesn't mean that the abortion caused the psychological effects. Like the American Psychological and the American Psychiatric Associations say, the best indicator of a woman's psychological health after an abortion is her psychological health before an abortion.

And to be honest, I am pretty sure that I could come up with some statistics that relate pregnancy and child-rearing to child abuse, in the way that people that aren't parents are less likely to abuse a child. That doesn't mean, though, that child abuse is a direct result of a woman being pregnant and giving birth.

[Alexandra 55]

I don't think anyone can be made to feel guilty for something that isn't wrong. No one can make me feel guilty for getting banded, for having short hair, or for buying a red car -- because there's nothing wrong with any of those things. They can yell and scream that I'm a sinner until they're blue in the face, but I still will feel no guilt. If there is no moral problem with abortion, no one would feel any guilt -- regardless of who tells them they're a sinner.

I also think it's sad that people write off a whole category of women who are experiencing real, true suffering just because some groups choose to believe PAS doesn't exist. It's real for a lot of women.

My daughter can feel guilty for spilling soda on the table, but there's nothing morally wrong with that action. Guilt is not felt in a vacuum; it's relative to the psychosocial surroundings of the people who have it. That's why we can be exonerated by our friends when we think we've trespassed. It has nothing to do with an absolute morality.

[Alexandra 55]

I have to stop now...every time I post I get an error message and it takes me several clicks to get back to the thread. It's frustrating. So I'm saying goodnight now. sleep tight, everyone!

[gadgetlady 4]

My daughter can feel guilty for spilling soda on the table, but there's nothing morally wrong with that action. Guilt is not felt in a vacuum; it's relative to the psychosocial surroundings of the people who have it. That's why we can be exonerated by our friends when we think we've trespassed. It has nothing to do with an absolute morality.

I disagree. I think you daughter might feel sorry for spilling soda, but only feel guilt if she tries to hide it from you or if she spilled it because she was doing something that she shouldn't have been.

[anonemouse 1]

My daughter can feel guilty for spilling soda on the table, but there's nothing morally wrong with that action. Guilt is not felt in a vacuum; it's relative to the psychosocial surroundings of the people who have it. That's why we can be exonerated by our friends when we think we've trespassed. It has nothing to do with an absolute morality.

Exactly. To say that no one can be made to feel guilty if they are not guilty is ignoring years of evidence to the contrary. What about cases where child-abuse victims are taught to be ashamed of their bodily functions or their appearance? People don't start out with that feeling, it's taught to them. Our entire society is based on teaching people certain moralities that aren't ingrained. In western society, women are taught that they must cover their breasts and crotch and they feel very guilty and "wrong," in many cases, when they don't. In some South American and African tribal societies, they aren't.

[gadgetlady 4]

I have several friends and acquaintances who have had abortions in all sorts of life circumstances, and not one of them has ever said she suffered because of it. Ever.

Have you ever asked? Would they feel safe telling you, knowing that you don't suffer?

Perhaps that's because the culture in my part of the country doesn't vilify abortions or the women who have them.

Well, you know, I do live in the Deep South. Of course, it's Southern CALIFORNIA, so I don't know how you get much more liberal than that LOL!

[marlynncreel 1]

well, here's my stand....abortion in any form or fashion and for any reason is murder plain and simple. from the time of conception that fetus becomes a living entity, even if it does depend on its mother (don't we do that any way throughout life?) here's my reasoning, i know that women do it for health risks a pregnancy may pose to them or some malformations to the fetus, but God doesn't make mistakes and things happen for reasons that we may not know this side of Heaven. miracles happen everyday and things may turn out differently than what dr.s say they will, but you'd never know if you just took their word for it and aborted. i faced somewhat the same decision, to have a procedure done that would probably cause a "miscarriage" or continue the pregnancy and take care of my medical condition after delivery, i chose the latter. and everything worked out, but if i'd chosen to do the procedure and "miscarry", i would be missing out on the most beautiful, charismatic child i know. it takes faith and lots of courage to do what's right. yes, it's a choice i was given, but God gives us choices too....do what's right or sin against him. and in regards to the christians making decisions in the government, i think that's when this country started going to hell in a handbasket.....when we started taking God out of it.....no more prayer in schools, removed the 10 commandments from the federal building etc.

[Alexandra 55]

Have you ever asked? Would they feel safe telling you, knowing that you don't suffer?

Of course. How would they know I don't suffer if we hadn't discussed our experiences? It's a common-enough experience that sometimes it comes up in conversation. At work a few weeks ago, when this SC decision came out, my new assistant volunteered her opinion on the decision and mentioned her own experience. We are both mothers of daughters so the issue hit home. She didn't know my history and I didn't know hers, but it turns out we feel the same way on the subject. This is just one of many women I've met over the years who, when the political subject of choice comes up in conversation, freely offer their own history as one reason for their staunch defense of Roe v. Wade.

Well, you know, I do live in the Deep South. Of course, it's Southern CALIFORNIA, so I don't know how you get much more liberal than that LOL!

Yet there is clearly something different in the Water. (I don't think SoCal is as liberal as people think it is, actually.)

[Alexandra 55]

Marlynncreel, your story is moving and I'm very happy that it turned out well for you. Needless to say, however, the same things that movitate you do not necessarily hold any Water for millions of other women. Atheists, for example.

[gadgetlady 4]

Years ago I was flipping through tv channels mid-day and happened upon Oprah interviewing a feminist icon; I think it was Helen Gurley Brown but I'm not 100% sure. She had just finished writing a book, a memoir about her life. Oprah was asking her about the last chapter of the book, which didn't really fit in with the rest. It was a letter to an imaginary daughter, or to the daughter she never had (I can't remember which words she used). I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, this woman has written a letter to her aborted daughter and published it in a book!"

The author went on and on about the chapter and you could see how emotional she was getting. It was so painfully clear that it was a post-abortive issue for her. She was talking about this "imaginary" daughter who was doing things like spinning around and dancing, how she was dressed, etc., how much her Mommy loved her and how she should always cherish that love. She kept going on and on about how much this "imaginary" daughter needed to know her Mommy loved her. It wasn't a "woman power" thing that you would expect from a feminist book, but rather very clearly and distinctly a love letter to her "imaginary" daughter. The chapter, according to the description of the book and discussions about it, was SOOOO out of place it was ridiculous.

While this is not necessarily everyone's experience, I am sure that there are a lot of women out there who feel the same way, who regret what they have done but who don't talk about it for fear of opening up the wound again.

[marjon9 6]

Years ago I was flipping through tv channels mid-day and happened upon Oprah interviewing a feminist icon; I think it was Helen Gurley Brown but I'm not 100% sure. She had just finished writing a book, a memoir about her life. Oprah was asking her about the last chapter of the book, which didn't really fit in with the rest. It was a letter to an imaginary daughter, or to the daughter she never had (I can't remember which words she used). I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, this woman has written a letter to her aborted daughter and published it in a book!"

The author went on and on about the chapter and you could see how emotional she was getting. It was so painfully clear that it was a post-abortive issue for her. She was talking about this "imaginary" daughter who was doing things like spinning around and dancing, how she was dressed, etc., how much her Mommy loved her and how she should always cherish that love. She kept going on and on about how much this "imaginary" daughter needed to know her Mommy loved her. It wasn't a "woman power" thing that you would expect from a feminist book, but rather very clearly and distinctly a love letter to her "imaginary" daughter. The chapter, according to the description of the book and discussions about it, was SOOOO out of place it was ridiculous.

While this is not necessarily everyone's experience, I am sure that there are a lot of women out there who feel the same way, who regret what they have done but who don't talk about it for fear of opening up the wound again.

I'm sure the anecdotes and magazine articles you discuss and describe are all true. And clearly those with the opposing point of view have no shortage of anecdotes and articles that are also true. But none of that has anything to do with the fundamental issue here, which is whether you have the right to legislate your particular brand of morality and force others to live the way you think is right. That's the issue. And no matter how many women there are out there with "post abortion syndrome," or whatever, this does not give you the right to take away the freedom of choice from other adult women who may disagree with you.

I, for one, don't understand your interest in presenting your sob stories of women who are unhappy that they had an abortion. Of course there are going to be women who regret having an abortion. And there are going to be those who don't regret it, and those wish they had done it. But none of that has anything to do with whether you have the right to force others, through legislation and potential criminal penalties, to live by the particular moral code that makes sense to you.

And in any event, if the lawmakers and judges of this country are ever mis-guided enough to try and make such legislate moves, all they will be doing is forcing the exact same procedures to take place underground in less safe conditions.

Now, I know, you will produce articles and anecdotes to "prove" me wrong, in one way or another. But none of these things give you the right to force others into living by your moral code.

[gadgetlady 4]

I didn't bring up PAS; someone else did, citing an article that claimed it didn't exist. I was simply presenting evidence that it does.

I have said before -- perhaps you didn't read it -- that whether or not women suffer after abortion is not a reason to outlaw the procedure. The basis for outlawing the procedure is quite simply that it takes the life of a human being. Period. It has nothing to do with religion or with beliefs about contraception or with how much women suffer after abortion (or don't) or overpopulation (or lack thereof) or anything else. It is very simple. Human beings don't have the right to kill other human beings for the sake of convenience.

[anonemouse 1]

Human beings don't have the right to kill other human beings for the sake of convenience.

Well, yeah, we kinda do. Like I said in the other abortion post, if you are put on life support and haven't made any advance directives, your husband has the right to remove that life support. It doesn't matter if he is doing it because he doesn't want you to suffer, or because he thinks that you would be an inconvenience to him, he has that right.