Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

[gadgetlady 4]

And the Internet Journal of Pediatrics and Neonatology isn't exactly JAMA.

There have been numerous studies with the same results. This isn't the first and it won't be the last.

As to post-abortion syndrome, I have never, ever met a woman who didn't suffer after her abortion. I know there are some on this board who have said they have, but IRL I have met many, many women who suffer after-effects of abortion, ranging from mild to extremely severe. Go to Silent No More Awareness Campaign or I Regret My Abortion to read about what some women have gone through -- not about what a magazine claims is a made-up syndrome.

[marjon9 6]

There have been numerous studies with the same results. This isn't the first and it won't be the last.

As to post-abortion syndrome, I have never, ever met a woman who didn't suffer after her abortion. I know there are some on this board who have said they have, but IRL I have met many, many women who suffer after-effects of abortion, ranging from mild to extremely severe. Go to Silent No More Awareness Campaign or I Regret My Abortion to read about what some women have gone through -- not about what a magazine claims is a made-up syndrome.

Based on the world you choose to live in and the people you choose to associate with it is not hard to believe that you have run across women who have suffered after an abortion. People usually find what they are looking for.

But aside from that, I have no doubt that there are, indeed, many women who suffer after abortions. My heart goes out to them. What I fail to understand is why this fact gives you the right to legislate away the right of other women to make that choice if they want to. Are you their parent or guardian? Is it your job to protect women from this even if they don't want your protection? I know, I know, your goal is to protect the baby. But if that is true, what difference does it make if the women suffer? What do you care whether they suffer or not? You don't really care about them, you care about the baby. If you truly cared about the women, you'd let them live their own lives without your interference. That is why this issue of the women suffering after abortions is a red herring. That is none of your business what suffering other women choose if they want to. You have no business concerning yourself with that.

The thing that you fail to understand is that pro-choice individuals are not heartless wanton gleeful baby killers who can't wait to have the next late-term abortion in order to have the opportunity to proclaim their radical feminist political point. When you use terms like "abortionist" to describe pro-choice individuals that is exactly what you are implying. Indeed, you do much more than imply that, you regularly describe pro-choice individuals as "baby killers." What your allegely compassionate, Christian little heart seems unwilling to contemplate is that the overwhelming majority of pro-choice individuals care very deeply about the issue, understand the issue well and yes, many even suffer greatly over it. They are not in the least wanton, heartless baby killers. But they are people who believe that even in the face of these serious issues they need to make a choice to end pregnancy. You do not have the right to take that choice away from them.

[gadgetlady 4]

What I fail to understand is why this fact gives you the right to legislate away the right of other women to make that choice if they want to.

What gives society the right to protect anyone from being killed by anyone else?

what difference does it make if the women suffer? What do you care whether they suffer or not? You don't really care about them, you care about the baby.

My goodness, I care if ANYONE suffers. If you could talk to some of the women I've worked with, you would know that. Mother and baby are BOTH precious.

The thing that you fail to understand is that pro-choice individuals are not heartless wanton gleeful baby killers who can't wait to have the next late-term abortion in order to have the opportunity to proclaim their radical feminist political point.

I never said they were, and I don't believe they are.

What your allegely compassionate, Christian little heart

I am amazed at how much venom you have for me, given that you don't even know me. Don't judge me based on your misconceptions about my political positions. I have friends who have chosen to abort and friends who have chosen to allow their children to live. Both groups consider me kind, compassionate, forgiving, and loving, and have expressed as much to me.

[marjon9 6]

I am amazed at how much venom you have for me, given that you don't even know me. Don't judge me based on your misconceptions about my political positions. I have friends who have chosen to abort and friends who have chosen to allow their children to live. Both groups consider me kind, compassionate, forgiving, and loving, and have expressed as much to me.

I have venom for you because of your relentless portrayal of pro-choice people as satanic monsters without a shred of human decency. "Abortionsists and Baby Killers. You claim to have compassion for women who make the difficult choice to have an abortion, but your words show your true feelings. The fact is, pro-choice people are 99% just like you. They care about babies, they understand the issues and think deeply about them. The only difference is the 1% where they tip to the other side of a very difficult issue. You clearly do not understand that. You give lip service to how "mother and baby are both precious," but what you mean is that "pro-life mothers and their babies" are precious. Pro-choice women, in contrast, are satanic, heartless monster baby killers who are only borderline human in the first place. Just look at some of what you write on this topic. Maybe if you re-read some of it you will have a moment of lucidity and see what I mean. But yes, you are right, I have venom for you. And that is why.

[gadgetlady 4]

You give lip service to how "mother and baby are both precious," but what you mean is that "pro-life mothers and their babies" are precious. Pro-choice women, in contrast, are satanic, heartless monster baby killers who are only borderline human in the first place.

You have no idea how wrong you are. The words, thoughts, and feelings you have put in my mouth are so way off base they're laughable. If I only thought pro-life mothers and their babies were precious, why would I offer assistance to abortion-minded women who clearly are not pro-life? It appears it is YOU who have categorized ME as a satanic, heartless monster.

[Alexandra 55]

Please keep the personal comments out of the discussion, Marjon. We don't want to have to lock this thread. I understand feelings run high on this issue but there is no need to get personal.

Thanks.

[anonemouse 1]

There have been numerous studies with the same results. This isn't the first and it won't be the last.

Then can you point us to one in a large, reputable, medical, psychiatric, or psychological sciences journal? Not one of these minor, obscure, or internet journals.

[gadgetlady 4]

Then can you point us to one in a large, reputable, medical, psychiatric, or psychological sciences journal? Not one of these minor, obscure, or internet journals.

I'll find some for you and post later. I've been reading about them for years; the first one I ever heard of was done at USC.

[gadgetlady 4]

Well, that wasn't too hard; the first one is the aforementioned study, but the others are independent. I'll find more, but here's a start:

PK Coleman, VM Rue, CT Coyle, CD Maxey, "Induced Abortion and Child-Directed Aggression Among Mothers of Maltreated Children," Internet Journal of Pediatrics and Neonatology, 6(2), 2007. http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ij...

VM Rue et. al., "Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian women," Medical Science Monitor, 10(10): SR5-16 (2004).

PK Coleman et. al., "The Quality of the Caregiving Environment and Child Developmental Outcomes Associated with Maternal History of Abortion Using the NLSY Data," Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 43(6): 743-57 (2002).

DM Fergusson et. al., "Abortion in young women and subsequent mental health," Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 47(1): 16-24 (2006).

Additional studies linking abortion to child abuse:

PG Ney, T Fung, AR Wickett, "Relationship Between Induced Abortion and Child Abuse and Neglect: Four Studies," Pre- and Perinatal Psychology Journal, 8(1):43-64 (1993).

M Benedict, R White, P Cornely, "Maternal Perinatal Risk Factors and Child Abuse," Child Abuse and Neglect, 9: 217-224 (1985).

E. Lewis, "Two Hidden Predisposing Factors in Child Abuse," Child Abuse and Neglect, 3: 327-330 (1979).

P. Ney, "Relationship Between Abortion and Child Abuse," Canadian J. Psychiatry, 24:610-620 (1979).

[anonemouse 1]

As to post-abortion syndrome, I have never, ever met a woman who didn't suffer after her abortion. I know there are some on this board who have said they have, but IRL I have met many, many women who suffer after-effects of abortion, ranging from mild to extremely severe. Go to Silent No More Awareness Campaign or I Regret My Abortion to read about what some women have gone through -- not about what a magazine claims is a made-up syndrome.

PAS isn't just what a magazine claims is made-up. It isn't even recognized by the American Psychological Association or the American Psychiatric Association or any other Association as a real condition.

From the NAF:

A Summary of the Scientific Research

Since the early 1980s, groups opposed to abortion have attempted to document the existence of "post-abortion syndrome," which they claim has traits similar to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) demonstrated by some war veterans. In 1989, the American Psychological Association (APA) convened a panel of psychologists with extensive experience in this field to review the data. They reported that the studies with the most scientifically rigorous research designs consistently found no trace of "post-abortion syndrome" and furthermore, that no such syndrome is scientifically or medically recognized.1

The panel concluded that "research with diverse samples, different measures of response, and different times of assessment have come to similar conclusions. The time of greatest distress is likely to be before the abortion. Severe negative reactions after abortions are rare and can best be understood in the framework of coping with normal life stress."2 While some women may experience sensations of regret, sadness or guilt after an abortion, the overwhelming responses are relief and happiness.3

In another study, researchers surveyed a national sample of 5,295 women, not all of whom had had abortions, and many of whom had abortions between 1979 and 1987, the time they were involved in the study. The researchers were able to learn about women's emotional well-being both before and after they had abortions. They concluded at the end of the eight-year study that the most important predictor of emotional well-being in post-abortion women was their well-being before the abortion. Women who had high self-esteem before an abortion would be most likely to have high self-esteem after an abortion, regardless of how many years passed since the abortion.4

Psychological responses to abortion must also be considered in comparison to the psychological impact of alternatives for resolving an unwanted pregnancy (adoption or becoming a parent). While there has been little scientific research about the psychological consequences of adoption, researchers speculate that it is likely "that the psychological risks for adoption are higher for women than those for abortion because they reflect different types of stress. Stress associated with abortion is acute stress, typically ending with the procedure. With adoption, as with unwanted childbearing, however, the stress may be chronic for women who continue to worry about the fate of the child."5

What the Experts Say

In a commentary in the Journal of the American Medical Association, Nada Stotland, M.D., former president of the Association of Women Psychiatrists, stated:

"Significant psychiatric sequelae after abortion are rare, as documented in numerous methodologically sound prospective studies in the United States and in European countries. Comprehensive reviews of this literature have recently been performed and confirm this conclusion. The incidence of diagnosed psychiatric illness and hospitalization is considerably lower following abortion than following childbirth...Significant psychiatric illness following abortion occurs most commonly in women who were psychiatrically ill before pregnancy, in those who decided to undergo abortion under external pressure, and in those who underwent abortion in aversive circumstances, for example, abandonment."6

Henry P. David, PhD, an internationally known scholar in this area of research, reported the following at an international conference.

"Severe psychological reactions after abortion are infrequent...[T]he number of such cases is very small, and has been characterized by former U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop as 'miniscule from a public health perspective'...For the vast majority of women, an abortion will be followed by a mixture of emotions, with a predominance of positive feelings. This holds immediately after abortion and for some time afterward...[T]he positive picture reported up to eight years after abortion makes it unlikely that more negative responses will emerge later."7

Russo and Dabul reported their conclusions of an eight-year study in Professional Psychology:

"Although an intensive examination of the data was conducted, controlling for numerous variables and including comparisons of Black women versus White women, Catholic women versus non-Catholic women, and women who had abortions versus other women, the findings are consistent: The experience of having an abortion plays a negligible, if any, independent role in women's well-being over time, regardless of race or religion. The major predictor of a woman's well-being after an abortion, regardless of race or religion, is level of well-being before becoming pregnant...Our findings are congruent with those of others, including the National Academy of Sciences (1975), and the conclusion is worth repeating. Despite a concerted effort to convince the public of the existence of a widespread and severe postabortion trauma, there is no scientific evidence for the existence of such trauma, even though abortion occurs in the highly stressful context of an unwanted pregnancy."8 (emphasis added)

The Impact of Anti-Choice Activities

Russo and Dabul8 point out that when women in their study were interviewed from 1979 to 1987, anti-choice efforts to stigmatize abortion had not yet reached prominent levels. Today, anti-choice groups regularly harass clinic staff, intimidate patients at clinics, and use graphic language designed to punish women (e.g. "abortion is murder," "women are baby-killers"). Additionally, the past few years have revealed a new anti-choice strategy of offering "counseling" services to women. Rather than exploring the roots of a woman's psychological distress and providing unbiased therapy, anti-choice counselors tend to direct her anger towards the abortion provider by claiming that women are misinformed about the psychological trauma that abortion inflicts. Due to the political bias of these counselors and their misuse of psychological services, women can be left feeling angry and betrayed.

Russo and Dabul8 concluded that practitioners should acknowledge the detrimental effects of the social ostracism felt by abortion patients. Some post-abortion difficulties may result from a lack of social support because women are expected to bear the brunt of unplanned and unwanted childbearing. The researchers encouraged all practitioners to continue to provide accurate information since many women have been misled by anti-choice sources which may contribute to concerns if they choose abortion. Further, women who have concerns after an abortion should be encouraged to see a professional psychologist or join a support group supervised by a professional mental health provider, rather than one sponsored by any anti-choice organization.

References

1. American Psychological Association. "APA research review finds no evidence of 'post-abortion syndrome' but research studies on psychological effects of abortion inconclusive." Press release, January 18, 1989.
   
2. Adler NE, et al. "Psychological responses after abortion." Science, April 1990, 248: 41-44.
   
3. Adler NE, et al. "Psychological factors in abortion: a review." American Psychologist, 1992, 47(10): 1194-1204.
   
4. Russo NF, Zierk KL. "Abortion, childbearing, and women's well-being." Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 1992, 23(4): 269-280.
   
5. Russo NF. "Psychologicalaspects of unwanted pregnancy and its resolution." In J.D. Butler and D.F. Walbert (eds.), Abortion, Medicine, and the Law (4th Ed., pp. 593-626). New York: Facts on File, 1992.
   
6. Stotland N. "The myth of the abortion trauma syndrome." Journal of the American Medical Association, 1992, 268(15): 2078-2079.
   
7. David HP. "Comment: Post-abortion trauma." Abortion Review Incorporating Abortion Research Notes, Spring, 1996, 59: 1-3.
   
8. Russo NF, Dabul, AJ. "The relationship of abortion to well-being: Do race and religion make a difference?" Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 1997, 28(1): 1-9.

[Alexandra 55]

Gadgetlady, are you trying to make a case that post-abortion syndrome is a reason to outlaw abortion? Because it could just as easily be a case for working to remove the stigma attached to abortion, making access to early professional care easier, and providing all the resources necessary to prevent unwanted pregnancies at all levels of society.

And yes, you have met (at least in spirit) a woman who did not suffer as a result of her abortion. Hi there.

[gadgetlady 4]

The information abounds; it's so voluminous I hesitate to post it all here. Just do a quick google search on "abortion child abuse studies" and read up. Even if you skip the vast right-wing conspiracy of pro-life sites, the information abounds.

I also found this interesting article from a non-pro-life source (Alcoholism Home Page

Abortion, Substance Abuse Linked

Women who choose to end their first accidental pregnancy with abortion, instead of carrying their pregnancy full term, are much more likely to end up abusing drugs and alcohol, according to research published in the American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse.

Many studies have linked abortion to substance abuse, but this study is the first to compare women who terminated their first unintended pregnancy with those who did not. The research included woman who had no history of substance abuse prior to their first accidental pregnancy.

According to the published study:

• 18.6 percent of women who got abortions used marijuana, compared to 7.9 percent of women who did not get abortions.
  
• Five percent of those who had abortions abused cocaine, compared to only two percent of women who did not.
  
• 8.4 percent who had abortions reported they thought they were becoming alcoholics, compared to 4.5 percent who did not have abortions.

"This is obviously relevant information to give when considering options in the face of an unplanned pregnancy," co-author James Cougle told the Washington Times. "I know that some women can be ambivalent about the decision when coming in at first for an abortion, so learning about different risk factors which would make them more vulnerable to negative emotional consequences is important."

[Alexandra 55]

But what, exactly, is your point? These things might all be attributed to the social pressure these women experienced before and after their abortions, guilt feelings from hearing that they are sinners, many other external factors.

[gadgetlady 4]

Gadgetlady, are you trying to make a case that post-abortion syndrome is a reason to outlaw abortion?

Actually, no. I was just responding to laurend's link to an article claiming that it doesn't exist. (BTW, the American Academy of Family Physicians believes it does)

And yes, you have met (at least in spirit) a woman who did not suffer as a result of her abortion. Hi there.

I said I'd never met one in real life. You and green (and I can't remember if there's anyone else on this board) are the first women I've ever "met" who've claimed they didn't suffer (I'm not questioning your claim, BTW). And contrary to what someone said earlier, I don't seek out women who do suffer PAS; often I know them for years without knowing about their abortions.

[anonemouse 1]

Gadget, I think we're talking about two different things. Read through all those papers for me, would you? Tell me the number of times "post-abortion syndrome" is used. I bet you won't find many, if any at all.

From Wikipedia.

The term post-abortion syndrome was first proposed as a variant of PTSD in 1981 by psychotherapist Vincent Rue.[2] PTSD had only been accepted as an official diagnosis by the American Psychiatric Association in the previous year, 1980. As a trauma specialist, Rue believed that many of the women he was treating for post-abortion reactions were experiencing a constellation of symptoms similar to that of many Viet Nam vets under his care.

Rue's proposal was immediately controversial. He was quickly put on notice by the general counsel of the APA that he would be subjected to legal action if any notes he published making reference to abortion induced PTSD did not include a specific disclaimer stating that the APA denies there is "any clinical evidence for the basis of the diagnosis of ‘post-abortion syndrome.'"[3] In 1994, the word abortion was excised from the description of psychosocial stressors included in the APA's diagnostic manual.