Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

[anonemouse 1]

Are you saying that people who fall prey to scam artists are not victims but actually at fault because of them willingly following along with the scam?

No, I'm not. But Funny, you were not scammed! You knew she was taking you to an abortion clinic! What did you expect was going to happen, the doctors getting down on one knee and begging you to make a different decision? I can understand you thinking you were scammed if you thought she was taking you to an OB/GYN to have an ultrasound or something, but you knew she was taking you for an abortion. She did not scam you.

When in a doctor's office it is the responsibility of the nurse and doctor to provide all of the options to the patient so that petient can make an informed decision.

There are obviously only two options when it comes to a pregnancy. You either have the baby, or you don't. That's freakin' obvious. No one needed to tell you that. Doctors don't care whether you decide to have the baby and give it up for adoption or have the baby and keep it. It isn't any of their business, it's a personal decision for you to make. Passing blame for your decision off on the nurse, by telling yourself "but she manipulated me into it" is crap. She could have told you anything, but at the end of the day, the decision was 100% up to you and you alone. She had no bearing on it at all.

[396power 2]

Yet I feel the choice you made is one of the responsible ways to deal with consequences. You did not bring an unwanted child into the world and did not become a mother before you were ready. Even though you feel that these decisions were coerced, others may see them both as very responsible decisions. I'm truly sorry that you don't see it that way and live with regrets.

I'm confused. Did you feel at the time that abortion was the wrong decision, and still went through with it? Or did you come to feel that way later? What do you think your decision would have been had you just been given information and told to go home and think about it? Without the lectures and scare tactics, would you have continued the pregnancy or gone through with the abortion?

The rest of your statements about consequences and punishments seem to be not borne of your experience, but rather your convictions about the rights of fetuses. As has been said repeatedly, we don't all share those convictions. I knew what a mother feels, too, and I came quite independently to the decision to terminate that pregnancy. Should I have had that choice removed because YOU feel differently about the "rights" of a potential baby?

Rabid pro-lifers seem to think that they can reduce the occurrence of what they see as murder by passing some laws, but this is the utmost fallacy. Abortion has been around as long as sex has, and a law or two will NEVER change that. What we as a civilized society should be doing is supporting and protecting women from unscrupulous monsters on either side who take advantage of them. Abortion is a reality, and to drive it underground would be the worst thing we could possibly do to our daughters.

Just 3 weeks ago you were telling me to watch what I say about pro choice, and homosexuals you told me not to use those words. But I guess since you are a modorator. It's okay for you to say stuff like rabid Pro-lifers Well since you will probably kick me off this site, Now that I have questioned you. I will tell you what I feel. I think when rabid pro-choice people can't see reason it is sad. For the most part,the same people that are pro-choice are also against death penalty and they are for Gun control. So let me get the really strait if a person such as my self wants to protect myself with a gun, you say there should be no guns. And if a man takes the life of another you say, he should sit in a prison with cable tv and play baskeball all his life but no death penalty. But if a woman with her doctor kills a living organism, a Baby, a living being. And from other post I've read you people say that if they can't breath they aren't living. Well that is wrong my Grandpa Was on a breathing machine and was very much alive. So a baby in the womb is still alive. But you say it is ok to kill that? Well this is where it is for me. I'm pro choice also. (What did he just say) You heard me right! I'm pro choice. I think a woman has a right to get an abortion. Just like I think that a person has a right to kill. And that I have a right to own a weapon (gun). Those are rights that we are born with. We can, be in 4th grade and pull down the fire alarm. But at the end of the day all these things we do have consequences. And if we do good then good thing happen if bad then of course bad things happen. So your right the goverment should not get involved. It should be the way it was throughout history. If you kill, consequences will happen to you when you get caught.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

Wow, how many times do I need to state that i accept responsibility? LOL I guess its something that has been glossed over a few times.

Lets go over a few things so that we can clarify where the two of us stand.

Scamming is the act of manipulating or taking advantage of someone's defenseless or weak position. It does not mean flat out "doing something behind someone's back". I take responsibility for what I have done. But I also see the obvious defect in the way the system is set up if we are going to continue to let this act continue. Women and girls can easily be coerced into doing something they plainly would not choose to do with a clear head when faced the shocking news and the possibly terrifying thought of explaining to loved ones and family why she is pregnant.

Even thought the options might, as you say, be "freakin obvious" there is a lot more that goes into it. There is a lot of planning, a lot of information to take in, and a lot of counselling that should be given. This will help for a woman to make an informed choice. My personal POV would be for the law to change, and no abortions happen ever, but I know this will be a long time coming. So until then I can only do what I have the ability to do. If you find my work unethical because you want all women to not have adoption as a choice I guess I understand that, coming from the view point that you have, but to anger at the fact that I do everything I can so that no one scams a girl like what happened to me is a bit "silly".

Are you doing any counselling for women? You seem to have some VERY powerful feelings on this subject. Have you taken any time to go into an abortion clinic to help offer yourself as a counselor or a shoulder to lean on if they have some remorseful feelings after the deed is done?

[396power 2]

Your first question is exactly what we are all asking. Since there is no way to determine whose line we should follow, we have to trust ourselves to come up with the right answer for ourselves. Why can't you do that for me?

Is that what happened to you?

The fetus is a FUTURE baby, we all agree on that. But I fail to see how anyone could change the fact of a fetus being a future baby into it being an actual, here-and-now baby. They are different stages on a developmental timeline that can't be simply compressed into nothing.

The only way I could have been shocked and changed by the statement you describe above is if I didn't understand I was terminating my pregnancy by having an abortion. Which, of course, I did.

Well if I have a corn stalk growing in my garden and I get a little nub on it I could open it up and take the nub. And have a few cornels of corn on it but it won't grow anymore. but if I leave it there till conception it will still be corn. Corn is corn and Life is Life!

[anonemouse 1]

Scamming is the act of manipulating or taking advantage of someone's defenseless or weak position.

No, it isn't. It's the act of committing a fraud. You weren't defrauded. That nurse was unprofessional and she was unethical, but she wasn't running a scam.

Wow, how many times do I need to state that i accept responsibility? LOL I guess its something that has been glossed over a few times.

It's fairly obvious to me that as much as you say you are accepting responsibility, you still blame the nurse for you having an abortion.

But I also see the obvious defect in the way the system is set up if we are going to continue to let this act continue.

When it is found to be happening, it is stopped. That obviously happened in this case, since the nurse was fired.

Even thought the options might, as you say, be "freakin obvious" there is a lot more that goes into it.

Not concerning your physician, there isn't. You either keep the baby and require their services, or you don't. Whether you decide to keep your child or have it adopted doesn't concern them.

There is a lot of planning, a lot of information to take in, and a lot of counselling that should be given. This will help for a woman to make an informed choice.

And that's not the responsibility of the doctor's office. That's the woman's responsibility.

If you find my work unethical because you want all women to not have adoption as a choice I guess I understand that, coming from the view point that you have, but to anger at the fact that I do everything I can so that no one scams a girl like what happened to me is a bit "silly".

That is NOT what I said. I said that I thought women should have ALL options presented to them. That includes keeping the child, adopting it out, AND abortion. I don't give a damn whether or not they choose adoption or abortion. I just think they should have that CHOICE.

Are you doing any counselling for women? You seem to have some VERY powerful feelings on this subject. Have you taken any time to go into an abortion clinic to help offer yourself as a counselor or a shoulder to lean on if they have some remorseful feelings after the deed is done?

No, I'm not. I'm not currently sexually active and I've never been pregnant. And I have very little tolerance for what I feel is "woe is me" attitudes. I'd be more likely to tell them to "grow the hell up", to be honest, because there isn't any point in crying over spilled milk. What's done is done. You can learn from what you've done or you can cry about it. And rural Kentucky doesn't have many abortion clinics.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

No, it isn't. It's the act of committing a fraud. You weren't defrauded. That nurse was unprofessional and she was unethical, but she wasn't running a scam.

It's fairly obvious to me that as much as you say you are accepting responsibility, you still blame the nurse for you having an abortion.

When it is found to be happening, it is stopped. That obviously happened in this case, since the nurse was fired.

Not concerning your physician, there isn't. You either keep the baby and require their services, or you don't. Whether you decide to keep your child or have it adopted doesn't concern them.

And that's not the responsibility of the doctor's office. That's the woman's responsibility.

That is NOT what I said. I said that I thought women should have ALL options presented to them. That includes keeping the child, adopting it out, AND abortion. I don't give a damn whether or not they choose adoption or abortion. I just think they should have that CHOICE.

No, I'm not. I'm not currently sexually active and I've never been pregnant. And I have very little tolerance for what I feel is "woe is me" attitudes. I'd be more likely to tell them to "grow the hell up", to be honest, because there isn't any point in crying over spilled milk. What's done is done. You can learn from what you've done or you can cry about it. And rural Kentucky doesn't have many abortion clinics.

You have a lot to say Lauren. I think you need to find a call in center. Maybe you can be of help to women counselling them on the pleasures of having an abortion.

The scam was commited. She profited from manipulating the actions of a vulnerable and confused person. That is a scam. I am not sure why it is so hard for you to give up to this. it is not like I am saying you did it. Why protect her? She was wrong in what she did. I have asked forgiveness for my actions. I pray for hers.

You said earlier that you felt all counselling was unethical if it did not pose both sides of the argument. Now you are saying you did not. I am confused as to which stance you wish to take on this.

Don't get me wrong, but most doctors concern themselves with their patients to make sure they do things the healthiest way possible. its not their duty to give choices, but it is their duty to give BOTH choices and be neutral. My doctor's office was not. i am not sure, again, why you have such a hard time with this. I thought this issue was clear.

I think maybe this debate is done for you Lauren. You keep debating the same points, and we just keep going around in circles. No matter what you can not possibly make me say that the nurse was not a part of this and that she did not do something wrong.

Come to me with a new point and we can continue this. until then I am done debating the nurses involvement and whether counsellors should give both options. I have given my position on both points and tire of telling it to you over and over again.

[BJean 16]

Scamming is someone pulling the wool over someone's eyes. Scamming is taking adavantage of someone who wants to believe what they're told. The scammed person wants to participate and so they are susceptible to the scam. It's nice that you say you are taking responsibility for your actions, but you do sound like you are blaming everyone from the doctor's office to the abortion clinic. I'm afraid I have to say that laurend is calling you out on this and you're the one who has given us the information - not someone who's telling on you.

One of the major problems in America today is lack of accountability. Everybody wants to pass the buck and blame everything and everybody for the things that happen that are unpleasant in their lives. It's like people wanting to blame the bartender for getting them drunk.

If you regret your decision, you should probably just say that. But to say that someone took advantage of you sounds like a made up story after the fact because you now feel guilty about your decision.

Do you really think that from what laurend said, she doesn't believe a woman should be aware of adoption options when she has an unwanted pregnancy? I think that you sound very passive aggressive. Your words don't seem mean, but there is an underlying message that does.

You said earlier several times that women don't want to be inconvenienced by 9 months of pregnancy. They should give life to a child and then give it up. That is totally unacceptible as far as I am concerned. If you're going to bring a life into this world, you better be willing to take care of it until it is grown. People need to take responsibility for their actions. Just because there are people who can't conceive and want to adopt doesn't make it great and wonderful for women to give birth to babies they have no intention of taking care of. I know I will catch hell for that, but I can't imagine for the life of me how any woman could give up their baby. And yes, the idea of a surrogate mother is creepy. If God wants a couple to have a baby, he'll see to it, right? There have to be good reasons for Him to prevent a couple from conceiving a child. Just like once He forgave you, He blessed you with two. It's gotta work both ways.

[BJean 16]

396: A nub (? - niblet?) of corn is not an ear of corn. It can't become an ear of corn without being planted and nurtured and even then there are no assurances that it will be able to become an ear of corn. All of the conditions must be right.

I hope your're not suggesting we are killers because we suck all of the niblets off the cob and eat them????!!!!!!

[anonemouse 1]

You said earlier that you felt all counselling was unethical if it did not pose both sides of the argument. Now you are saying you did not. I am confused as to which stance you wish to take on this.

Where exactly did I say that I didn't say that counselling is "unethical if it did not pose both sides of the argument"? I don't see where I said that. If you are referring to where I said "That is NOT what I said", I was referring to this statement by you:

If you find my work unethical because you want all women to not have adoption as a choice I guess I understand that, coming from the view point that you have, but to anger at the fact that I do everything I can so that no one scams a girl like what happened to me is a bit "silly".

The scam was commited. She profited from manipulating the actions of a vulnerable and confused person. That is a scam. I am not sure why it is so hard for you to give up to this. it is not like I am saying you did it. Why protect her? She was wrong in what she did. I have asked forgiveness for my actions. I pray for hers.

She still didn't scam you, because a scam results from misleading someone. She didn't mislead you. She was very upfront about the fact that she was talking you into abortion. She didn't trick you. I am not defending her actions. I think they were despicable. She was wrong. But the fact is, she DID NOT SCAM YOU. She didn't lie or mislead you. Your failure to fully research what you were doing does not a scam make. Again, I'm not pretending that she was acting in a proper manner, but I'm not going to play the "oh, you poor, poor thing, getting scammed by the big, bad abortionist" game. The fact is, she is not at all to blame for your actions.

The way you come across is that you feel guilty and you are trying to deflect on to other people as much of the "blame" for your abortion as possible. If you tell yourself and other people that "she scammed me" or "she manipulated me" or "there were ringers", you don't have to take all the responsibility. The fact is, you made this decision all on your own. You left the clinic and came back. You had to sign consent forms. No one forced you to do this. No one scammed you into it. No one told you that you were consenting to a basic pelvic exam and then aborted your fetus.

If "profiting from manipulating the actions of a vulnerable and confused person" is a scam, just about every single business out there is a scam. Weight Watchers is a scam. WLS is a scam. Plastic surgery is a scam. The fact is, business people profit off of other people. It's life.

[anonemouse 1]

You said earlier several times that women don't want to be inconvenienced by 9 months of pregnancy. They should give life to a child and then give it up. That is totally unacceptible as far as I am concerned. If you're going to bring a life into this world, you better be willing to take care of it until it is grown. People need to take responsibility for their actions. Just because there are people who can't conceive and want to adopt doesn't make it great and wonderful for women to give birth to babies they have no intention of taking care of. I know I will catch hell for that, but I can't imagine for the life of me how any woman could give up their baby. And yes, the idea of a surrogate mother is creepy. If God wants a couple to have a baby, he'll see to it, right? There have to be good reasons for Him to prevent a couple from conceiving a child. Just like once He forgave you, He blessed you with two. It's gotta work both ways.

I can tell you right now that I would rather have an abortion that give a child up for adoption. I don't want to carry what's basically a parasite for 40 weeks. I don't want the social stigma of being pregnant and not having a baby to show off. I don't want to have to take time off of my work as a field biologist because I can't do my job. I don't want a child and I don't want to take the risk of becoming emotionally attached to it. I don't want children. I don't like children. I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate children, but I really, REALLY dislike them. In fact, the more kids my family members have, the less I want to be around my family members.

[Alexandra 55]

Funny, you've mentioned several times that you've asked for forgiveness for your abortion. Have you forgiven yourself? :hug:

Just 3 weeks ago you were telling me to watch what I say about pro choice, and homosexuals you told me not to use those words. But I guess since you are a modorator. It's okay for you to say stuff like rabid Pro-lifers Well since you will probably kick me off this site, Now that I have questioned you. I will tell you what I feel. I think when rabid pro-choice people can't see reason it is sad. For the most part,the same people that are pro-choice are also against death penalty and they are for Gun control. So let me get the really strait if a person such as my self wants to protect myself with a gun, you say there should be no guns. And if a man takes the life of another you say, he should sit in a prison with cable tv and play baskeball all his life but no death penalty. But if a woman with her doctor kills a living organism, a Baby, a living being. And from other post I've read you people say that if they can't breath they aren't living. Well that is wrong my Grandpa Was on a breathing machine and was very much alive. So a baby in the womb is still alive. But you say it is ok to kill that? Well this is where it is for me. I'm pro choice also. (What did he just say) You heard me right! I'm pro choice. I think a woman has a right to get an abortion. Just like I think that a person has a right to kill. And that I have a right to own a weapon (gun). Those are rights that we are born with. We can, be in 4th grade and pull down the fire alarm. But at the end of the day all these things we do have consequences. And if we do good then good thing happen if bad then of course bad things happen. So your right the goverment should not get involved. It should be the way it was throughout history. If you kill, consequences will happen to you when you get caught.

Honestly. When we asked you to tone down your rhetoric when you first got here, it wasn't anything personal. You did, and we thank you, and you're a welcome part of this site. Why so defensive? My comment about "rabid pro-lifers" is not a personal attack on anyone, and correctly describes the subset of right-to-lifers about whom I was talking. It's not an insult to say they exist, is it?

Anyway, what you're describing is essentially anarchy. You believe people have the right to kill? For no reason? Assuming that the consequences you mention are not that our victims' families will come after us but that the law will means that in fact you do believe the law should get involved. Were you being sarcastic?

[396power 2]

Funny, you've mentioned several times that you've asked for forgiveness for your abortion. Have you forgiven yourself? :hug:

Honestly. When we asked you to tone down your rhetoric when you first got here, it wasn't anything personal. You did, and we thank you, and you're a welcome part of this site. Why so defensive? My comment about "rabid pro-lifers" is not a personal attack on anyone, and correctly describes the subset of right-to-lifers about whom I was talking. It's not an insult to say they exist, is it?

Anyway, what you're describing is essentially anarchy. You believe people have the right to kill? For no reason? Assuming that the consequences you mention are not that our victims' families will come after us but that the law will means that in fact you do believe the law should get involved. Were you being sarcastic?

Your post was just as personal as mine the fact is. I really did not attact anyone personally and if you need proof go look at my post But because I stand where I do you think it is okay to degrade me. But you can dish it out but you can't take it. But please if I am wrong prove it. Quote the post I made that was so more offensive than your rabid pro-lifer post. You can't they are basicaly the same. I said I did not like homosexuals (did not direct this at anyone on this site was a general statment) And I don't like abortions or libreals. So the way I see it you are calling me the same. what bothers me is that just because you are the word police you think the same rule you gave me does not apply to you. Me I really don't care what you call me. It does not really matter.

[Alexandra 55]

396, as I recall I just asked you to be mindful of the wide-ranging audience here. I didn't call YOU anything. I said that rabid pro-lifers hold a thought that I consider to be a fallacy. That's not attacking the pro-lifers, it's attacking the thought. And the definition of "rabid pro-lifer" is, in fact, someone who wants to outlaw abortion in every case, no exception.

I fail to see how that's offensive. Maybe if I change the word "rabid" to "extreme"? That'd be fine with me. Whether you consider yourself a rabid or extreme pro-choicer or pro-lifer, my entire point is that these people are on the edges and MOST people are somewhere in the middle.

[Wheetsin 714]

Hi 396Power, since I see you're back, I thought you may have missed this:

Originally Posted by 396power

Well in that case let's make it legal to sell crack and use it.Then we can

get tax revenue off it and by your statement, there will be a lot less drug addicts.

And what statement was that, exactly? I asked a hypothetical question. Please share what "statement" you are referring to, so I can respond.

And if you're referring to the hypothetical question I asked, what you say doesn't even make sense. I asked if the rate of abortions would decrease, or if just the rate of safe abrtions would decrease (paraphrasing). How is that, in any way, related to tax revenue from drug addicts???

[Wheetsin 714]

Well if I have a corn stalk growing in my garden and I get a little nub on it I could open it up and take the nub. And have a few cornels of corn on it but it won't grow anymore. but if I leave it there till conception it will still be corn. Corn is corn and Life is Life!

This argument really doesn't make sense to me.

If you have a cornstalk with some kind of corn nub on it, "conception" has already occured. You don't have a nub of corn and then wait for it to be conceived. That's like having a fetus in your uterus, and waiting to become pregnant, or being pregnant but still waiting to conceive.

A corn "nub" is not an ear of corn, it's a nub. If you leave it there it might become an ear of corn. If you remove it, it won't. A lot of things have to occur between "nub" and "ear", including a lot of developmental stages. A fetus is no different.