Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

[anonemouse 1]

But what if you all who think that life does not start until the baby is born are wrong? What if it is determined that life does start that early. Will you all change your minds and cry for the millions of babies that have been killed?

To be honest, I don't care. I won't cry for "millions of babies" because I believe the woman takes precedence over a clump of cells.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

Were you having irresponsible sex? Do you believe you should have been punished for that? Why didn't you want to keep the baby in the first place? And why didn't you tell the father of the child? Would a law have changed your mind?

Your answers to those questions are personal, and of course you don't have to share them. But my point is that your answers to those questions are YOUR answers, not mine, not my daughters', and not those of all the other women who may choose abortion.

I am happy to answer these questions. I was having irresponsible sex. I was not married. Its not like I thought that I could just go get an abortion so it was no problem, but the emphasis on the importance of abstinence was something that I was never brought up with because society does not think it is important any long. However I was on birth control pills. I took them regularly, and never missed.

I do not understand your question about being punished for it. In what sense do you mean? By God? My family? The govt?

I will answer the next two questions together. When I went into the doctor's office to have the pregnancy test my boyfriend was not with me. He was in class. We were both in college at the time, and i felt i should find out if I am pregnant before talking to him. this was my first mistake. I should have trusted him enough with sharing this decision with him. But when the test came back positive my world fell down around me. I did not have any time to process anything before the nurse sat down with me and started telling me that I should not tell my boyfriend because that would cheat him into a mariage, and I would never know for sure if he really married me because of the baby or because he really loved me. She also started talking about how I was too young to care for this child and that I had no money. That I would have to go on govt assistance and I would never climb out of that hole. That I could not put it up for adoption because it would end up in an abusive household and would never have permanent parents until it finally went out into the world on its own at 18. I got a lot of the same rhetoric from the counselor at the abortion clinic. Some of it was almost word for word.

The law would have definitely changed my mind! For one, I would have seen only one option...adoption. For another, the nurse would have more likely not "attacked me" with all of her propoganda if she did not have a clinic offering her a finders fee for bringing in abortion patients.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

To be honest, I don't care. I won't cry for "millions of babies" because I believe the woman takes precedence over a clump of cells.

wow! must be nice to live life so callously. i know if I were that way it would remove a lot of guilt and decision making for me. i'll have to check into that.

[lisah25 3]

The law would have definitely changed my mind! For one, I would have seen only one option...adoption. For another, the nurse would have more likely not "attacked me" with all of her propoganda if she did not have a clinic offering her a finders fee for bringing in abortion patients.

Hi FunnyDuddies!

Your story makes me think that how the decision to have an abortion is made needs to change. At the same time, for everyone like you, there is someone who was very sure that an abortion was the right thing for her, and a law preventing her from doing that would be as wrong, in my opinion at least, as what you describe you went through.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

I understand what you mean lisah. I am sure there are a lot of people out there that feel this way. As much as I am positive that there are people out there who feel that they have every reason and right to kill other adult people, and who feel that they have the right to steal from others.

One thing to keep in mind is that pro-life advocates see this as KILLING BABIES. If you took an issue that you felt very strongly over, felt that someone who could not defend themselves was being treated badly, molested, or killed, you would fight and try to help them in every way possible. This is how a pro-lifer feels. these are unborn babies that do not have a voice, and they need protecting. Understanding the reason behind it may help pro-choicers understand why those of us who are agains abortion are so strong on this issue and require govt intervention.

[Wheetsin 714]

Hi Funny! Things are going well - how are things for you?

I still stand by my earlier - not really an idea, not really a claim, perhaps notion that better education needs to be provided. I know it's hard to educate objectively, but women need to know what their options are, what the known long term consequences are for each, etc. I also think there should be madatory psychology sessions. And I don't mean counseling, I mean with clinical psychologists who have been specifically trained in the particular area.

I agree completely that people are often lead down one path. And while I agree that ultimately individuals are responsible for their own decisions, I also believe that the decision-making process needs to be theirs. To draw another parallel to the lap-band, I've had probably 50 people come to me in some form or another because they were banded and immediately regretted their decision, even though they were sure it was right for them going into it. For the most part, they're seeking help finding a way to come to terms with their decision, or tips to make life more livable. In most cases, these people were not educated about what they were doing. They heard of the lap-band, decided it was for them, and were banded a few days later. Or were just ignorant about what it really looked like (the "you don't even know enough to know what you don't know" syndrome). It's too bad, because the information is out there, it just didn't get and wasn't found by these people. Who's fault is that? It's easy to point fingers. As I've said in an earlier post, yes - people have the responsibility to educate themselves. Programs SHOULD have a responsibility to make sure their patients understand what's happening, but they don't -- but if you think about it, taking steps to educate your patients will only benefit you. Should we look to schools? Should we look to society on a more macro scale? Who carries the expense? Who carries the responsibility? I dunno. I just think that a lot of the problem lays in education - o rlack thereof.

[green 6]

Well, that is one woman's abortion story. Here is mine. I was 32 years old and living in France when I found out that I was in the early stage of pregnancy. Though this was back in the early 1980s abortion on demand was available in France. This procedure required that I make an initial appointment with the medical staff at the local hospital in order to ascertain that I was pregnant, that I arrange for several tests to be completed as even early stage procedures were done under anaesthetic, and that I book an appointment for the procedure itself.

Now, France is a socialist country and it - because it is concerned about its dropping birthrate - is also is child friendly; this is to say that there are many government programmes in place in order to assist all women who wish to keep their babies. Pre and post natal care is free as is all health care in this socialist state. Paid maternal leaves are generous and jobs can be guaranteed for up to three years. There is a national system of pre-schools which any child can attend for free once he or she is toilet trained and there are also government run nurseries for the very young. One has to pay for the use of these but the cost is not large and they do allow a new mother to drop off her baby for a few hours whenever she needs a break. Of particular interest to the foreigner is that all infants born on French soil have to right to be deemed French citizens. Now, all of this information was laid out in a booklet which was given to me at the time of my initial meeting in order to arrange for my abortion.

Government law required that I be given this information before going through with the abortion and that there be a ten-day reflection period from the day of the initiating appointment to the day of the abortion itself.

Of course there is nothing as sensible or as humane as this inside of North America. Here we have a bunch of right to lifers who are usually also right wing in their political beliefs; these folks are saying to pregnant women that they should have their infants but they are not providing a clear-cut social framework in which child raising becomes an attractive option for the middle class.

We are, afterall, aware that the poor are the least likely to opt for abortions. They've got nothing to lose by having a bunch of kids. It is the middle class who finds themselves compromised; there are careers, medical bills, etc.....

Right wing Christians don't bring anything to this debate other than to say that they consider that this act is heinous.

As for FunnyD's experience, well, this was definitely a very weird and a very bad sad experience. I am reminded, though, that there are lots of pseudo-choice clinics operating where pregnant women go expecting that they will receive the abortions upon which they have decided only to find that they have been trapped in a series of delays until it is too damn late.

[marjon9 6]

I understand what you mean lisah. I am sure there are a lot of people out there that feel this way. As much as I am positive that there are people out there who feel that they have every reason and right to kill other adult people, and who feel that they have the right to steal from others.

One thing to keep in mind is that pro-life advocates see this as KILLING BABIES. If you took an issue that you felt very strongly over, felt that someone who could not defend themselves was being treated badly, molested, or killed, you would fight and try to help them in every way possible. This is how a pro-lifer feels. these are unborn babies that do not have a voice, and they need protecting. Understanding the reason behind it may help pro-choicers understand why those of us who are agains abortion are so strong on this issue and require govt intervention.

There is no lack of understanding about the pro-lifer's position. Everyone in the world understands that pro-lifer's think that abortion is killing babies, and that this is why pro-lifer's believe that government intervention is required. The issue here is not a lack of understanding of the pro-life position.

The issue here, instead, is a lack of agreement with the pro-life position. People who support a woman's right to choose feel just as passionately as you do. They are simply advocating that the priority should be given to the grown up, adult human being who is actually alive in the world today, facing real problems.

Of course, your response is to say, "no, no, wait, a fetus is a human being!!" You have a right to that opinion. The thing is, though, pro-choice advocates do not agree with you. The problem here is not that pro-choice advocates do no understand that you "really really, seriously, and passionately" think a fetus is baby.

And I would also say the same thing to you that I said to gadgetlady about some of your arguments. You diminish your credibility when you make silly arguments, just like she diminishes her credibility when she does the same thing. It is simply a silly argument to claim that abortion should be illegal because you are sure that many adults out there believe they should be able to kill each other. That is just ridiculous, and it takes away from the admitted strenth of some of your other arguments.

When people believe they have a right to an abortion, they are not arguing that they have a right to kill a "person." That is not the argument being made. The argument is that the fetus is not a "person."

[TommyO 5]

I have just begun to read this thread and I admit that I made it to about page 8 before I had to post a reply. If I should merely be repeating something that was already posted I apologize. I have a hard time with this debate because people's opinions are based on their personality type. I believe in a Women's right to control their bodies. I also do not like abortion so you could say that I am Pro-Choice but Anti-Abortion. It seems kind of odd but I do not think the two camps are mutually exclusive.

I also believe that in the great majority of cases the individuals involved (In this case the pregnant female in conjunction with other's involved) will make the right decision. The issue is not black and white and because of this we cannot make hard and fast rules. For every example given as to why we need hard and fast rules there is a counter example that proves that course to be a foolish direction to choose indeed.

Gadget you are a very black and white person so for you answers need to be black and white, the problem is that the world is not always a black and white place and every time you describe a scenario that involves evil people killing babies I imagine a scenario where the life of a healthy adult female is saved at the expense of a fetus with no chance of survival.

Because you are black and white you have a hard time with the grey and I doubt you will ever concede that there will ever be a legitimate reason to perform this or any type of abortion. You say that you do not approve of one individual deciding for another whether they should live or die but you are willing to make that decision for another. You somehow beliive that if there are hard and fast rules the problem will be solved but they will be your rules and they will create a whole new set of problems.

I prefer that these decisions be made individually by those involved at the time. Each case is different so a wide variety of solutions should be considered and I hope that those involved will make the best decision. Your black and white approach does not allow for the exceptions and as such is far less kind a solution. Absolutism does not work, it may seem to provide simple solutions but I think in the long run it proves to be an absolute disaster.

[BJean 16]

It's very interesting to read both of your stories. I've heard similar stories most of my life.

I find that I must interject that (in all honesty) I have heard many more gruesome stories about women who called a number in the phone book that was listed as abortion counseling, or unwanted pregnancy counseling, which turned out to be places where they were shown horrible graphic films and were emotionally pressured by the staff not to consider having an abortion because it is killing, killing, killing and the poor woman is accused of taking away the baby's rights, and going against God's will. Talk about pressure!

But as to the reason I find the these two stories so interesting since they are juxtaposed right here is because in both cases, abortion seems to have been the right answer.

FunnyD says that she was convinced by someone to believe that if she didn't get an abortion, her boyfriend would marry her only out of guilt or some other forced situation reason, or that if she kept the baby on her own she'd wind up on welfare. I find it hard to believe that even a 19 year old college student wouldn't be able to sort this out without outside influence. It was YOUR life. YOUR boyfriend. Even if you barely knew him, you might have trusted someone with whom you had shared your bed, enough to speak with him about it. But that's unimportant to the way it played out. The reality was, you wound up marrying your boyfriend, finding peace through God, and having two beautiful, much-desired and loved children. Not only that, but probably due to your experience, you spent 3 years counseling women against choosing abortions. All things considered, it sounds like you made the right decision.

Green has never wanted children and says she has never changed her mind about that. She is married to a wonderful hunk of a man, and they share a beautiful life. Sounds like she too, made the right decision.

Now I ask you, if abortion were illegal for these two women, would their stories have worked out so well? I know one of you will say you pine for the baby, but that's easy for you to say in retrospect. The fact is, you have a good life and if you hadn't aborted the baby, that may not have been the case. I believe we all do the best we can at any given time.

We don't need the government in the middle of a personal, physical crisis. We don't need a group of people with strong religious beliefs imposing their will on all women. It isn't fair and it isn't right. You got your abortion, let me get mine if I need one.

[BJean 16]

P.S. In re-reading my post, I realize it sounds harsh. I apologize for that.

[Alexandra 55]

I am happy to answer these questions. I was having irresponsible sex. I was not married. Its not like I thought that I could just go get an abortion so it was no problem, but the emphasis on the importance of abstinence was something that I was never brought up with because society does not think it is important any long. However I was on birth control pills. I took them regularly, and never missed.

So you weren't having "irresponsible" sex--rather, your birth control failed.

I do not understand your question about being punished for it. In what sense do you mean? By God? My family? The govt?

I mean that if abortion were illegal, you'd have been punished for your birth control having failed. Punished in the sense that the only option you saw as open to you--abortion--would have been off-limits. Punished in the sense that you would have had fewer choices open to you to salvage a situation that you found yourself in due to circumstances beyond your control. Punished in the sense of being told you are not adult enough, not a PERSON enough, to do what you think is right.

I will answer the next two questions together. When I went into the doctor's office to have the pregnancy test my boyfriend was not with me. He was in class. We were both in college at the time, and i felt i should find out if I am pregnant before talking to him. this was my first mistake. I should have trusted him enough with sharing this decision with him. But when the test came back positive my world fell down around me. I did not have any time to process anything before the nurse sat down with me and started telling me that I should not tell my boyfriend because that would cheat him into a mariage, and I would never know for sure if he really married me because of the baby or because he really loved me. She also started talking about how I was too young to care for this child and that I had no money. That I would have to go on govt assistance and I would never climb out of that hole. That I could not put it up for adoption because it would end up in an abusive household and would never have permanent parents until it finally went out into the world on its own at 18. I got a lot of the same rhetoric from the counselor at the abortion clinic. Some of it was almost word for word.

The law would have definitely changed my mind! For one, I would have seen only one option...adoption. For another, the nurse would have more likely not "attacked me" with all of her propoganda if she did not have a clinic offering her a finders fee for bringing in abortion patients.

Of course, it's entirely possible that the 'nurse" who behaved so unethically toward you would not have been daunted by a law. And there will be many more of them to cater to ever more desperate women if abortion ceases to be a legal option.

When I found myself unexpectedly pregnant (my birth control failed, too), the first person I told was my boyfriend. We talked and agreed that we weren't ready to become a family (though we did marry five years later), and my own doctor referred me to an abortion clinic. I had to wait a couple of weeks because I'd caught it too early for a procedure to be performed. There was no drama, no manipulation, no pro or con persuasion. It wasn't very painful and I had no physical after-effects. I was 22 years old and everyone treated me like the adult I was.

I'm just sorry you couldn't have had the same respect shown to you. But I guarantee you that making abortion illegal will guarantee LESS respect and LESS decent treatment for the hordes of women who want nothing more than to be treated like people. What should be outlawed is the kind of treatment you received, not the procedure itself.

Funny, I have to ask: If you felt then as you do now that life begins at conception and abortion is killing a person, why were you so easily swayed to end your pregnancy? Did you consider keeping it or giving it up for adoption? You were the victim of a wholly unethical group of people. You, however, were not forced to have an abortion and I just want my daughters to not be forced to go through with unintended or unwanted pregnancies.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

There is no lack of understanding about the pro-lifer's position. Everyone in the world understands that pro-lifer's think that abortion is killing babies, and that this is why pro-lifer's believe that government intervention is required. The issue here is not a lack of understanding of the pro-life position.

The issue here, instead, is a lack of agreement with the pro-life position. People who support a woman's right to choose feel just as passionately as you do. They are simply advocating that the priority should be given to the grown up, adult human being who is actually alive in the world today, facing real problems.

Of course, your response is to say, "no, no, wait, a fetus is a human being!!" You have a right to that opinion. The thing is, though, pro-choice advocates do not agree with you. The problem here is not that pro-choice advocates do no understand that you "really really, seriously, and passionately" think a fetus is baby.

And I would also say the same thing to you that I said to gadgetlady about some of your arguments. You diminish your credibility when you make silly arguments, just like she diminishes her credibility when she does the same thing. It is simply a silly argument to claim that abortion should be illegal because you are sure that many adults out there believe they should be able to kill each other. That is just ridiculous, and it takes away from the admitted strenth of some of your other arguments.

When people believe they have a right to an abortion, they are not arguing that they have a right to kill a "person." That is not the argument being made. The argument is that the fetus is not a "person."

You keep saying silly arguments. I am not sure what part of my opinion or my experience you find silly. I guess you will need to point this part out to me.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

It's very interesting to read both of your stories. I've heard similar stories most of my life.

I find that I must interject that (in all honesty) I have heard many more gruesome stories about women who called a number in the phone book that was listed as abortion counseling, or unwanted pregnancy counseling, which turned out to be places where they were shown horrible graphic films and were emotionally pressured by the staff not to consider having an abortion because it is killing, killing, killing and the poor woman is accused of taking away the baby's rights, and going against God's will. Talk about pressure!

But as to the reason I find the these two stories so interesting since they are juxtaposed right here is because in both cases, abortion seems to have been the right answer.

FunnyD says that she was convinced by someone to believe that if she didn't get an abortion, her boyfriend would marry her only out of guilt or some other forced situation reason, or that if she kept the baby on her own she'd wind up on welfare. I find it hard to believe that even a 19 year old college student wouldn't be able to sort this out without outside influence. It was YOUR life. YOUR boyfriend. Even if you barely knew him, you might have trusted someone with whom you had shared your bed, enough to speak with him about it. But that's unimportant to the way it played out. The reality was, you wound up marrying your boyfriend, finding peace through God, and having two beautiful, much-desired and loved children. Not only that, but probably due to your experience, you spent 3 years counseling women against choosing abortions. All things considered, it sounds like you made the right decision.

Green has never wanted children and says she has never changed her mind about that. She is married to a wonderful hunk of a man, and they share a beautiful life. Sounds like she too, made the right decision.

Now I ask you, if abortion were illegal for these two women, would their stories have worked out so well? I know one of you will say you pine for the baby, but that's easy for you to say in retrospect. The fact is, you have a good life and if you hadn't aborted the baby, that may not have been the case. I believe we all do the best we can at any given time.

We don't need the government in the middle of a personal, physical crisis. We don't need a group of people with strong religious beliefs imposing their will on all women. It isn't fair and it isn't right. You got your abortion, let me get mine if I need one.

BJ this is a very interesting point, and it is one that I have pondered. Did God put me in this position, to make a choice through free will, then to learn from it in order to counsel others and fight for the rights of the unborn? Yes. I believe he did. Did this work out as a perfect solution. Well my life has certainly gone the way I had planned from early on, minus a few bumps in the road, but the life of my unborn child did not go on. it was never given a chance. So I do not believe it worked out for the best for him or her.

[lisah25 3]

I believe in a Women's right to control their bodies. I also do not like abortion so you could say that I am Pro-Choice but Anti-Abortion. It seems kind of odd but I do not think the two camps are mutually exclusive.

I think it's a common stance. I am personally against abortion. However, I also firmly believe it is an area where the decision should not be made by the government.