Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

[gadgetlady 4]

Someone PM'd this to me, not wanting to post it herself. I have her approval to re-post it here and am taking out anything that would identify her.

I had an abortion when I was 19 and it killed me. It was the worst mistake I could have ever made. And I lived with the pain and torture of it for a long time. All the while trying to get pregnant with my husband's and my first child after marriage. ([husband's name] was the father to the aborted baby, but we were not married, and when I spoke to the nurse at my doctor's office she told me that "it would be a shame to force him to marry you for the baby, you'll never know if he really loves you") It was not until I let go, helped with some post-abortion counseling, and truly opened myself up to God and asked to be cleansed of that sin that I finally got pregnant with [daughter] and the pregnancy stuck. We got [son] 15 months later. He was a happy surprise. I do not believe in accidents any longer. He was certainly not planned, and it was hard having pregnancies back to back, but I love him more than life itself.

One thing that I found interesting... When I went for my appt i got put into a room with a bunch of other girls. We were given valium pills and made to sit and wait for our turn. There were these three women in there that were very vocal. One was young, and was so happy that she was able to do this. That she was "not ready for a child and needed to complete school". One was a woman in her 30's and "she has an abortion once a year. She has an allergy to latex and cannot take the pill because she smokes. So her and her husband utilize abortions as birth control" Another kept complaining about the "pro-lifers" near the street and how awufl they were. That they were just harming others by preaching to traffic. I observed them, and while waiting I got very upset. I starting crying so much that I hyperventilated. The doctor told me to leave and come back the next day. The next day I went through the whole routine again, took my valium and lo-and-behold the same three women were in the room. I was so angered, but the valium really takes the edge off of you, and i was so upset about being in there. It was total confusion.

I just thought I would share how the clinic I went to was certainly deceptive and mind controlling up until the very end. Its very sad that baby killing is such a booming business. I fell to my knees and thanked God when I heard the decision on partial birth abortions. Its one step in the right direction.

In case any of you skimmed that story, what happened was there were "ringers" in the abortion clinic placed there to be very verbal about their stories so that women would be convinced not to leave the clinic. I've never heard a story like that, but I don't doubt it's true.

[Wheetsin 714]

Faithmd - if I do say so myself, the cake was awesome. And I don't even like it that much (cake in general, and in particular pineapple upside down cake). I had a piece, and a piece the next day, with the pineapple removed. It's very dense, moist and buttery. I can shoot you the recipe if you want.

Gadget - I'm a cynic but honestly, I don't care if the story is true or not. I wonder why the person would be there if they were so upset by what they're doing. I don't know the story, and I'm certainly not asking -- but it reads as though the storyteller were "forced" into being there, in which case there's a whole lot more to the story (and perhaps the discussion) than whether abortions are right/wrong.

[marjon9 6]

Someone PM'd this to me, not wanting to post it herself. I have her approval to re-post it here and am taking out anything that would identify her.

I had an abortion when I was 19 and it killed me. It was the worst mistake I could have ever made. And I lived with the pain and torture of it for a long time. All the while trying to get pregnant with my husband's and my first child after marriage. ([husband's name] was the father to the aborted baby, but we were not married, and when I spoke to the nurse at my doctor's office she told me that "it would be a shame to force him to marry you for the baby, you'll never know if he really loves you") It was not until I let go, helped with some post-abortion counseling, and truly opened myself up to God and asked to be cleansed of that sin that I finally got pregnant with [daughter] and the pregnancy stuck. We got [son] 15 months later. He was a happy surprise. I do not believe in accidents any longer. He was certainly not planned, and it was hard having pregnancies back to back, but I love him more than life itself.

One thing that I found interesting... When I went for my appt i got put into a room with a bunch of other girls. We were given valium pills and made to sit and wait for our turn. There were these three women in there that were very vocal. One was young, and was so happy that she was able to do this. That she was "not ready for a child and needed to complete school". One was a woman in her 30's and "she has an abortion once a year. She has an allergy to latex and cannot take the pill because she smokes. So her and her husband utilize abortions as birth control" Another kept complaining about the "pro-lifers" near the street and how awufl they were. That they were just harming others by preaching to traffic. I observed them, and while waiting I got very upset. I starting crying so much that I hyperventilated. The doctor told me to leave and come back the next day. The next day I went through the whole routine again, took my valium and lo-and-behold the same three women were in the room. I was so angered, but the valium really takes the edge off of you, and i was so upset about being in there. It was total confusion.

I just thought I would share how the clinic I went to was certainly deceptive and mind controlling up until the very end. Its very sad that baby killing is such a booming business. I fell to my knees and thanked God when I heard the decision on partial birth abortions. Its one step in the right direction.

In case any of you skimmed that story, what happened was there were "ringers" in the abortion clinic placed there to be very verbal about their stories so that women would be convinced not to leave the clinic. I've never heard a story like that, but I don't doubt it's true.

Frankly, I am not surprised that you "don't doubt it's true." But the fact is, this is just another example of your usual method of argument. You find extreme examples on the far reaches of imagination and believability, and then forward them as if they are the norm (like women having abortions as a rite of passage). You then argue that "abortions are bad because women are using abortions as a rite of passage," that "baby killing is a booming business," and that "abortion clinics are bad because they are full of 'ringers.'"

But of course, all of that is nonsense. Even if the far-fetched and unlikely scenarios you present actually did occur in the most rare and unusual situation, they have no relevance to the main stream issues and arguments on both sides.

Again, I have to wonder why you do this. You are obviously an intelligent and educated woman. Why do you stoop to these far-fetched and unbelievable extreme examples to support your points? There are many reasonable, mainstream arguments against abortion. I don't agree with them, but I recognize that a well-meaning, intelligent person could disagree with me. But it is just silly to argue that "abortion clinics are bad because they are full of "ringers" who sit around full time day after day trying to trick confused women into having abortions with drugs and pro-life horror stories in order to support the booming business of baby killin." That kind of argument is just ridiculous. It diminishes your credibility significantly, but somehow, you are not able to see that.

[gadgetlady 4]

Gadget - I'm a cynic but honestly, I don't care if the story is true or not. I wonder why the person would be there if they were so upset by what they're doing. I don't know the story, and I'm certainly not asking -- but it reads as though the storyteller were "forced" into being there, in which case there's a whole lot more to the story (and perhaps the discussion) than whether abortions are right/wrong.

Well I guess from a business standpoint the abortion clinic has the right to put whoever they want in their prep room to keep their customers from leaving.

I think a lot of women are pressured into aborting because they feel they have no choice, as was this woman. Seeing a "counselor" in an abortion clinic who tells you you'll never know if the baby's father loves you or not if you keep the baby isn't really counseling. Being 19 and pregnant can be very scary and with no one supporting you in choosing life, it would be very easy to get pushed into a decision you'll later regret. I've seen it happen more than once.

As to needing to give those customers valium to get through the procedure, and as to several people on this thread who have intimated that everyone feels relief and no regrets after abortion, I think this bandsters situation speaks to that.

[Alexandra 55]

I think a lot of women are pressured into aborting because they feel they have no choice, as was this woman. Seeing a "counselor" in an abortion clinic who tells you you'll never know if the baby's father loves you or not if you keep the baby isn't really counseling. Being 19 and pregnant can be very scary and with no one supporting you in choosing life, it would be very easy to get pushed into a decision you'll later regret. I've seen it happen more than once.

As to needing to give those customers valium to get through the procedure, and as to several people on this thread who have intimated that everyone feels relief and no regrets after abortion, I think this bandsters situation speaks to that.

Oh, please. No one has said that "everyone feels relief and no regrets after abortion." Certainly everyone who finds themselves unexpectedly pregnant is in a stressful situation, indeed, but that is no reason for the government to get involved. We may all react to this sort of personal trauma differently, but taking decisions out of the hands of women--even 19 year-old women--because they might "regret" it just infantilizes and demeans all of us.

Yes, counseling is important, but the responsibility is on THE WOMAN to assess her own state of mind, her circumstances, and carefully decide what to do. No one else has that control. It sounds as though the only options the woman you're describing had were to a) keep the baby and force the guy into marrying her, and be forever worried he didn't love her, or have an abortion against her will. Forgive me, but last I heard there were several other options available.

No one has an abortion against her will. But if we continue to allow the government to intrude into our personal medical decisions, we may not be able to say that forever. If the government can tell us which medical procedures we CAN'T have, what's to prevent them from telling us what we MUST have?

[anonemouse 1]

Gadget - I'm a cynic but honestly, I don't care if the story is true or not. I wonder why the person would be there if they were so upset by what they're doing. I don't know the story, and I'm certainly not asking -- but it reads as though the storyteller were "forced" into being there, in which case there's a whole lot more to the story (and perhaps the discussion) than whether abortions are right/wrong.

I agree. This girl could have left at any time, if she was so upset. You can't legally force someone to have an abortion in this country.

And Gadgetlady, I wouldn't say that there was no one supporting her in choosing life. From the way it sounds, there were plenty of people outside that would have supported and praised her if she decided not to have an abortion. There are organizations out there that are specifically aimed at helping women who don't want to keep their babies, but also don't want to have an abortion.

I hate it when people try and blame other people for a decision they made. No one forced her into this, or at least, I'm assuming her husband didn't force her because she still married him. Yes, she had an abortion. She knew that, it's why she went to the clinic. She could have walked out of that clinic at any time. When they sent her home, she could have not gone back to that clinic. She could have had the baby and given it up for adoption. Stop blaming these so-called "ringers" (if they existed) for her deciding to go through with your abortion. Whether or not they were there, she is the only person responsible for her decision.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

I had heard about this thread from someone on another board, and thought I would come and check it out. i read everyone's posts, and felt I needed to share my story. I did so by posting it to Gadgetlady because i was busy, and felt it was not right for me to come back posting here after all of the hulabaloo with a past member. But I feel that my story may not have the impact that it should if it comes second hand, and the last few posts are evidence to that.

So that being said, let me respond to a few things said here.

Wheets, how are ya girl? I understand the need to take a cynical view on this. We all have our stances on things, and believe that our opinions are right. My story is a true one, however, and I want it known that I was in no way "forced" but more "manipulated" into doing this. The nurse that I first saw was at my PCP office, not at the clinic. A phone number for a "pregnancy support line" was actually a pro-abortion line where I basically received all the reasons NOT to bring a child into the world. I was talked down to, and treated like a 13 year old. I was 19, but was still a child. I was at college, away from my family, not many friends, and totally needing to look to someone for support. What I got was a group of people with an agenda. The time it took from my finding out I was pregnant to the time I finally had the abortion was 4 days. The nurse from my doctor's office called my home number often for the first 2 days, under the guise that she was checking to see how I was doing. She was the one to drive me to the clinic. And the one to take me back AFTER SEEING THAT THIS WAS SUCH AN UPSETTING THING FOR ME. She did not care about what I was going through, only caring about bringing another patient into the clinic.

Are you aware that nurses and individuals get referal fees for the patients they bring in? This is common practice for a lot of the clinics, as well as a common practice in many fields of medicine. And setting up ringers in a clinic is also comon practice. As a business woman I know it to be smart business as well. These people are known as "closers" and are essential in a type of business that needs convincing. Its not far fetched, and anyone with any clue about business would know this to be true.

Marjon, I do not know you. You joined long after I did, and long after I left. I do think, in all due respect, that your judgement is clouded by your bias to your opinion. Just because you feel that something seems out of line in a practice you support does not mean it does not happen. In reading this thread it is made very clear that Gadgetlady stated that there is a foundation of truth in the "feminists using abortion as a rite of passage", but because this may rub you the worng way you automatically conclude that it must be BS. The same goes for my story that she shared for me. Why would this make you so upset? is it because you find some form of shadiness to this practice? That maybe the pro-choice movement is not as "helpful and endearing" as they would like the world to think it is? After my ordeal I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how I could heal my mind and soul from this awful thing I had done. I spent a lot of time doing post-abortion counselling and I was not at all shocked to hear the same story as mine over and over again. And this is nationwide. I took calls from women all over the country. Its difficult for me to understand how someone can support an act, but then be shocked and disbelieve the tactics used to create clients for these clinics.

So that being said, I hope you all understand that I came back here for this issue only, and to support my story which was shared by a good friend. Good to see you all again.

Aim

[FunnyDuddies 6]

I agree. This girl could have left at any time, if she was so upset. You can't legally force someone to have an abortion in this country.

And Gadgetlady, I wouldn't say that there was no one supporting her in choosing life. From the way it sounds, there were plenty of people outside that would have supported and praised her if she decided not to have an abortion. There are organizations out there that are specifically aimed at helping women who don't want to keep their babies, but also don't want to have an abortion.

I hate it when people try and blame other people for a decision they made. No one forced her into this, or at least, I'm assuming her husband didn't force her because she still married him. Yes, she had an abortion. She knew that, it's why she went to the clinic. She could have walked out of that clinic at any time. When they sent her home, she could have not gone back to that clinic. She could have had the baby and given it up for adoption. Stop blaming these so-called "ringers" (if they existed) for her deciding to go through with your abortion. Whether or not they were there, she is the only person responsible for her decision.

I am the one responsible for the decision. I made it, I had it done, and I regretted every moment of it. But I KNOW that a major part of that decision was based on the manipulation that was done by the people around me. My boyfriend (now husband) did not know of my decision until after when I no longer had the "support" of the people that were trying to get me to have this done. I was taken back home and left to fend for myself. I think that what most people do not comprehend is that when you are young, and faced with an unplanned pregnancy you are vulnerable, not thinking clearly, under distress. In legal matters, you can't sign a contract under these circumstances, so why would someone be allowed to make a decision of this magnitude without proper support? When my husband found out about the nurse and her actions he contacted our PCP. She was fired for her actions. If this was proper support do you think she would have ben fired?

[FunnyDuddies 6]

You know there are so many debates out there as to when life begins, and when it constitutes as murder vs a medical procedure. But what if you all who think that life does not start until the baby is born are wrong? What if it is determined that life does start that early. Will you all change your minds and cry for the millions of babies that have been killed?

[anonemouse 1]

She was fired for her actions. If this was proper support do you think she would have ben fired?

No, it wasn't, which is why she got fired. I think it is abundantly clear that she acted inappropriately. I also believe that something like that happening is relatively rare. Of course, it happens, but I believe the vast majority of abortions are done professionally. You got suckered in by someone that wasn't professional. That sucks, but it's no reason to outlaw all abortions.

And she may have manipulated you (which I think is a little too strong), but at the end of the day, you were the one responsible for the decision. She couldn't have forced you into a taxi and taken you to have an abortion. You were willing. At any time, you could have changed your mind and left, but you didn't. It was your responsibility as a sexually active adult to know the options and the consequences of those options.

[gadgetlady 4]

Frankly, I am not surprised that you "don't doubt it's true." But the fact is, this is just another example of your usual method of argument. You find extreme examples on the far reaches of imagination and believability, and then forward them as if they are the norm (like women having abortions as a rite of passage). You then argue that "abortions are bad because women are using abortions as a rite of passage," that "baby killing is a booming business," and that "abortion clinics are bad because they are full of 'ringers.'"

Either you are deliberately exaggerating or you are skimming everything I say. I mentioned women having abortions as a rite of passage as a response to the post that no one ever wants to have an abortion. I don't think that they're bad because some extreme women might want to have them. I think they're bad because they take a human life. Baby killing IS a booming business. Why don't you check out Planned Parenthood's annual income? And I never said abortion clinics are bad because they're full of "ringers". I mentioned a situation where one woman encountered them; you drew that conclusion.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

Again, I do take responsibility, but I also understand the power people have over people who are under distress. And until you work a post-abortion help line for 3 years, you may not want to make statements such as "these things do not happen". they do, more often than you can imagine.

I believe that the government should step in and make this option illegal. that way it would have not been so easy for me to make the decision, or any other young and stuck girl like I was.

Laws are very powerful things. They make people think twice about taking other people's lives, taking drugs, stealing, and doing lots of other illegla, and IMMORAL actions. If abortion was outlawed there would still be people taking actions into their own hands, or going to dirty doctors, but it will also cut WAY down on the number of abortions being done. And then, maybe, women will take having sex irresponsibly more serious.

[Alexandra 55]

Funny, my heart goes out to you and especially to the confused 19-year-old girl you were. No one would defend the actions of that nurse, who indeed did not treat you the way you should have been treated.

However, saying that women should have the choice does not equate to believing that the sort of treatment you got is fine and dandy. The nurse's actions were unethical. But unethical behavior can be found everywhere, and there are lots of stories from scared young women who wanted abortions but were manipulated out of having them as well. There is always room for regret if decisions are not made freely.

That doesn't change a thing about the inappropriateness of laws being made to take those decisions out of women's hands.

[Alexandra 55]

Again, I do take responsibility, but I also understand the power people have over people who are under distress. And until you work a post-abortion help line for 3 years, you may not want to make statements such as "these things do not happen". they do, more often than you can imagine.

I believe that the government should step in and make this option illegal. that way it would have not been so easy for me to make the decision, or any other young and stuck girl like I was.

Laws are very powerful things. They make people think twice about taking other people's lives, taking drugs, stealing, and doing lots of other illegla, and IMMORAL actions. If abortion was outlawed there would still be people taking actions into their own hands, or going to dirty doctors, but it will also cut WAY down on the number of abortions being done. And then, maybe, women will take having sex irresponsibly more serious.

Were you having irresponsible sex? Do you believe you should have been punished for that? Why didn't you want to keep the baby in the first place? And why didn't you tell the father of the child? Would a law have changed your mind?

Your answers to those questions are personal, and of course you don't have to share them. But my point is that your answers to those questions are YOUR answers, not mine, not my daughters', and not those of all the other women who may choose abortion.

[gadgetlady 4]

You know there are so many debates out there as to when life begins, and when it constitutes as murder vs a medical procedure. But what if you all who think that life does not start until the baby is born are wrong? What if it is determined that life does start that early. Will you all change your minds and cry for the millions of babies that have been killed?

Welcome, Funny! Thanks for your insightful comments driven by personal experience.

The question of whether the thing growing in the woman's uterus is a baby is a simple one. Is it human? Of course it is. Check the DNA. Is it alive? Of course it is -- brain waves, heartbeat, etc. Ergo, human life.

Have fun with this thread, guys! I'm off for a while now, heading across the Atlantic.