Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

[gadgetlady 4]

There are reasonable arguments against a right to choose. Few people here seem to agree with them, but at least they are reasonable and credible. Why not focus on those instead of the silly things you bring up to support your points?

This is a joke, right? I AM NOT FOCUSING ON IT! I said it once, early on, and was surprised when several other people (at least 5) brought it up later. I really didn't think this would be a big deal for everyone who supports abortion. All I've been doing since then is defending the fact that these people exist and also defending my right to bring it up.

That being said, I'm done with it. I think I've demonstrated that those people exist (since you all are now screaming about why I brought it up rather than that it's ludicrous, ridiculous, and not true), so now it's up to you to examine your consciences and figure out why you have a problem with the particular reasons why a woman might exercise her "right" to have an abortion.

[Wheetsin 714]

it's made me wonder why the heck you all DON'T believe women should be allowed to have an abortion for whatever reason they damn well choose. My body, my choice, after all. Who the heck are you to judge women who want to have the experience?

To me, a choice is a choice. I don't think we can say "It's ok if..." Either it's allowable, or it isn't. In that case, you will always have people who use it for its "intended" purpose (e.g. unintentional, medical considerations, etc.) versus "unintended" (e.g. leisure pregnancy control, nothing better to do on Friday afternoon, whatever). By advocating for the right to choose, you're advocating for the right to choose to do it for any reason. I *hope* (think) most people who advocate for a woman's choice understand that.

Personally, I don't care why someone is having an abortion. My greatest hope would be that they at least make an educated decision - understand what it does to the body, understand the emotional consequences they may have and take as many precautions as possible, etc. But whether someone wants the abortion because they were raped or because they were too lazy to take their pill doesn't make one iota of difference to me. It's about having the choice and domain - not about the motivators or surrounding consequences.

[Wheetsin 714]

Just throwing a question out there. If clinical abortions were outlawed, do you guys think we'd see a decrease in the number of abortions that occur? (Let's say that hypothetically we could account for all abortions, legal and not - so the possibility that they could occur untracked is removed).

Or do you think we'd just see a decrease in abortions done in controlled and reasonably safe medical surroundings, vs. the hanger in a bathtub, chop shop in someone's basement, or women who repeatedly bang themselves against the backs of chairs?

[gadgetlady 4]

To me, a choice is a choice. I don't think we can say "It's ok if..." Either it's allowable, or it isn't. In that case, you will always have people who use it for its "intended" purpose (e.g. unintentional, medical considerations, etc.) versus "unintended" (e.g. leisure pregnancy control, nothing better to do on Friday afternoon, whatever). By advocating for the right to choose, you're advocating for the right to choose to do it for any reason. I *hope* (think) most people who advocate for a woman's choice understand that.

Thank you, Wheetsin, for your coherent and consistent POV. From the big brou-ha-ha about this whole thing, I have been left with the belief that many of your fellow believers, or at least those that have posted on this thread, have more of a problem with abortion than they will admit to.

[anonemouse 1]

Thank you, Wheetsin, for your coherent and consistent POV. From the big brou-ha-ha about this whole thing, I have been left with the belief that many of your fellow believers, or at least those that have posted on this thread, have more of a problem with abortion than they will admit to.

Thinking that women should have the choice to have an abortion does not mean that someone agrees with the practice. I mean, I don't know if I would have one, but I think that every woman should be able to make that choice for herself. To me and to most other pro-choice people, I think, it is a medical decision. The choice is what it is all about, not whether or not someone thinks that it's a wonderful practive.

[gadgetlady 4]

Just throwing a question out there. If clinical abortions were outlawed, do you guys think we'd see a decrease in the number of abortions that occur? (Let's say that hypothetically we could account for all abortions, legal and not - so the possibility that they could occur untracked is removed).

Or do you think we'd just see a decrease in abortions done in controlled and reasonably safe medical surroundings, vs. the hanger in a bathtub, chop shop in someone's basement, or women who repeatedly bang themselves against the backs of chairs?

I think we'd see a decrease. I do believe that some abortions would continue to occur, but I think the decrease would be dramatic.

It is also the case that clinical abortions are not always done in safe medical surroundings. The abortion industry is less regulated than veterinary clinics and the conditions in said clinics are often deplorable. (I'm sure all of you are going to get your hackles up again about how this is a right-wing fallacy; lmk if you want me to cite examples.)

Let's face it; the implements of abortion won't disappear if abortion is illegal. Nor will the chemical combinations used to abort. I believe it will still happen in the significantly decreased numbers as I mentioned, but I also believe it will be just as "safe" (for the mother of course; it's never safe for the baby) as it is now. (BTW, I don't believe it's safe for the mother either. The complications that come with abortion are numerous and significant.)

In case you didn't know, the numbers of self-induced abortions reported prior to Roe v. Wade was fabricated. Bernard Nathanson, a former abortionist and one of the founders of NARAL (in other words, not a right-wing fanatic but someone with credentials in this matter), indicates in http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html:

We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to

crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalising abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalisation.

[Wheetsin 714]

or at least those that have posted on this thread, have more of a problem with abortion than they will admit to.

I think it's possible for people to support the right to choose 100%, and still be morally opposed to abortion. In fact, I think (but could be wrong) that Carlene has shared that position a few times. And I think Laurend has also said she is not "pro" people running around having abortions willy nilly. And I know a LOT of people IRL who support abortion "if...". But sometimes you just can't have ifs. When you're dealing with medicine, there's always going to be an unprecedented case, or an anomoly. Or a mistake.

I would guess that in most cases (and probably in the majority of cases), the right to choose and keep legislation away from your uterus overrides public moral objection to the fact that there's a fetus/baby involved. Meaning - while someone would never have an abortion themselves, nor would they ever want to prevent someone else from having the choice.

I've not had an abortion, but I did have a close call with pregnancy once. While on the pill and using a spermicide. It ended up being for other reasons, but my period was over two months last. And honestly, I did start to have thoughts like, "I wonder if there is anywhere around here that performs abortions..." So I know that it's not a decision that - in most cases - is made lightly. I know that the fear that resided in the back of my head was -- perhaps I wouldn't regret it now, but what about 10 years down the road? What it something changed and I decided I wanted to have kids, but was then unable to for some reason? Etc.

I don't know what's required to have an abortion - maybe just the cost. But I would hope that, at the very least, some steps are taken to educate - regardless of the "why". I mean - hell, I had to go through a psychologist to get my band...

[gadgetlady 4]

I've not had an abortion, but I did have a close call with pregnancy once. While on the pill and using a spermicide. It ended up being for other reasons, but my period was over two months last. And honestly, I did start to have thoughts like, "I wonder if there is anywhere around here that performs abortions..." So I know that it's not a decision that - in most cases - is made lightly. I know that the fear that resided in the back of my head was -- perhaps I wouldn't regret it now, but what about 10 years down the road? What it something changed and I decided I wanted to have kids, but was then unable to for some reason? Etc.

I don't know what's required to have an abortion - maybe just the cost. But I would hope that, at the very least, some steps are taken to educate - regardless of the "why". I mean - hell, I had to go through a psychologist to get my band...

Sadly, it's just the cost. Very little, if any, education is involved. If you read anything about women who have chosen abortion and regret their choice, you will hear over and over that they had no idea what they were doing. Many women are so conflicted over their decision that they change their minds immediately after the abortion, at which point it's too late. A psychological evaluation or counseling is not required in all clinics (some provide it, or at least the appearance of it, but not all do). It is not difficult to get a woman who's conflicted about her pregnancy, at the most emotional time in her life, to sign on the dotted line and get her "problem" "taken care of".

The saddest situation is when a woman can't get pregnant in the future because of a previous abortion (one of the complications of some types of procedures is future infertility or an increased miscarriage rate).

[gadgetlady 4]

I should add: I have two very good friends, both of whom have three children. One has three girls and one has three boys. They are both pro-life now. They both (long after their abortions) desperately wanted children of both genders. The one with three girls won't talk about abortion at all because he believes he and his wife killed their only boy, and discussing it makes him too sad (I don't know if they knew the baby was a boy at the time of the abortion or not; I've never asked). The one with three boys is a post-abortion counselor and grieves the loss of her daughter; again, I don't know if she knows for sure the baby was female [i didn't want to cause her more pain by asking about it]).

[gadgetlady 4]

BTW, now that the "debate" portion of this thread seems to be over and real, legitimate questions are being brought up, I would like to say I wouldn't be surprised if there are some reading this thread who have had abortions and have a lot of pain over it.

If anyone wants to know about post-abortion counseling, feel free to PM me. If you aren't comfortable doing that, please to go http://www.hopeafterabortion.com/ or http://www.abortionrecoverycounseling.com/Page.html.

[anonemouse 1]

I personally don't blame the doctors for a woman failing to educate herself. I think that as adults, we are all responsible for educating ourselves. I mean, look at the way we approach lap-band surgery, for example. With very few exceptions, we've had to rely on ourselves to become educated about the surgery and life after surgery. If we relies solely on our doctors and the professionals, most of us would be sorely uneducated about what we are facing. With any medical procedure, we have the responsibility to educate ourselves and not to rely on medical professionals to do that for us.

[anonemouse 1]

I don't want to sound heartless, but what I would say to people regretting having an abortion is, well, "get over it". Regret is a part of life. It doesn't do anyone any good to sit around and wish that you had done this differently or done that differently, because it's done already. You were an adult, you made an adult decision, now you have to live with the consequences. Wishing you had done something else doesn't change the fact that you did what you did. You can't look back and say, "well, if I had done this or done that, this would have happened (or this wouldn't have happened." Hindsight may be 20/20, but no one can see the future. All you can do is tell yourself that while you may have gone through with the pregnancy if you were in the same situation as you are now, you did what was best for you at the time.

[gadgetlady 4]

I personally don't blame the doctors for a woman failing to educate herself. I think that as adults, we are all responsible for educating ourselves. I mean, look at the way we approach lap-band surgery, for example. With very few exceptions, we've had to rely on ourselves to become educated about the surgery and life after surgery. If we relies solely on our doctors and the professionals, most of us would be sorely uneducated about what we are facing. With any medical procedure, we have the responsibility to educate ourselves and not to rely on medical professionals to do that for us.

I hear you, and I am a big believer in education as well. However I noticed on your signature line that you are waiting on drug and alcohol screenings to get insurance approval. I'm sure you'll have a psych eval as well, as Wheetsin pointed out.

Abortion is a decision many women make in a time of intense emotional crisis (not all, but many). There was a thread recently about whether it was acceptable to pay drug users to be sterilized, and if I recall most people had a visceral negative response to that practice, concerned about preying on people who really weren't capable of making such an important decision at a time when their decision-making faculties were impaired. I would posit, and many post-abortive women will back me up on this, that the situation is similar with an unplanned pregnancy. I am NOT saying women aren't smart or can't reason through the process. I am saying that at a time in their lives when everything seems to be going wrong and their hormones are raging (anyone who's ever been pregnant can attest to the hormonal changes one goes through), they will often grasp at anything that seems to solve their problem.

[Wheetsin 714]

I agree. But I don't think it's a reality. You'd think adults looking at the lapband would educate themselves about it, but we get a _lot_ of posts from people who have already been banded, and don't know the first thing about what they're doing. In the case of the lapband, I think a lot of people don't know where to go for education. It isn't terribly prolific outside of the internet yet. A lot of that belief stems from the number of people I know who now see me as their personal library, because I can answer their questions about it. You'd think it would be as easy as a google search, and for many here that's the case, but that isn't the case for many, maybe even most, out there.

Based on my personal experiences, I think that most people who get the band are uneducated about it. And I think that's unfortunate, because I also believe it's a HUGE contributor to the "what the fuck did I just do to myself" reactions. I spent more than 5 years researching, debating, self-prpearing, etc. Most people I know who are banded made their decision within the span of a few weeks, and most have, at some point, regretted their decision. I didn't - never have. That's nothing about "me"... it's about "prepared and informed" vs. " spontaneous or uneducated". The education class I had to take to get my band was really a waste to me, because I knew everything she was telling me, and could even tell her some things. But even if you just look at the questions we get here... if everyone's surgeon had that same requirement, people would start off on much better feet.

In the case of abortion, I think you have to consider a few different issues. One is that, usually, they aren't dont with a lot of planning. It's an "oh crap" knee-jerk reaction. Not terribly conducive to research. And it's also hitting (not entirely, perhaps not even mostly, but undoubtedly) a demographic that, for a few reasons, isn't going to be the best researcher.

While I am extraordinarily pro-choice, I am also pro-informed-choice. I would not necessarily be opposed to having a mandatory education session before an abortion could be performed, if it could be done in a factual and unbiased way. To go back to the parallel -- seriously, I had to go to a 2 hour "class" about the band, how the place it, what life is like afterwards, what kinds of complications might arise, etc.

[gadgetlady 4]

I don't want to sound heartless, but what I would say to people regretting having an abortion is, well, "get over it". Regret is a part of life. It doesn't do anyone any good to sit around and wish that you had done this differently or done that differently, because it's done already. You were an adult, you made an adult decision, now you have to live with the consequences. Wishing you had done something else doesn't change the fact that you did what you did. You can't look back and say, "well, if I had done this or done that, this would have happened (or this wouldn't have happened." Hindsight may be 20/20, but no one can see the future. All you can do is tell yourself that while you may have gone through with the pregnancy if you were in the same situation as you are now, you did what was best for you at the time.

:cry We have all done things we regret in life, and many of those things require emotional healing. Nothing can change the facts of the past, but one can learn to deal with them better -- and forgive oneself -- and perhaps help educate others about the dangers. See http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/ for many testimonies of women who regret their abortions. We all become better people if we learn from our mistakes, but it is smarter and much more efficient to learn from others' mistakes.