Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

[DevilMayKare 1]

Well, I haven't been on this board for a couple of months but I logged on after hearing Alec Baldwin's msg to his daughter. I felt so incredibly incensed and figured someone on HERE must be feeling the same way and was talking about it. Not yet, uh?

So the heat on LBT is about abortion today... Interesting. Despite Gadget's assertion that not all ANTI-Choice advocates are Christians, all the ones I have met are. I am sure there are exceptions, but I've never met an atheist or agnostic who felt it was their choice to make for someone else on this issue. And the part that always amazes me about CHRISTIANS being so against abortion is the TOTAL LACK of Biblical precedent on this matter.

Anyone who has read the Bible--and particurlarily the Old Testament knows that life was very, very cheap. There are so many examples of God's chosen killing those not chosen (How about the entire city castrated and killed? Or God's darling David having Bethsheba's husband killed?) it is just amazing how people use "The Word of God" of all things to justify this stance. "Thou shalt not kill" is one of the commandments, and yet the Bible is full of killing. (And how about EVERY FIRST SON of the entire Egyptian population? How many baby boys did God kill there?)

Consider one class of "unwanted children" that didn't come up--that would be those generated by adultery. What a woman is going to do with an unwanted baby is not much of an issue if she is stoned for adultery.

Whatever one's opinion is on this one, I really dont' see how you can use the God of the Bible to justify it.

[marjon9 6]

It's not even that it is that horrible, it's just that it is so totally ridiculous. Stop, take a deep breath, and think. Do you really believe that "feminsts" are lining up and getting abortions as a right of passage? How disconnected are you from reality and honest human emotions? What cartoon-like characatures of "feminists" do they teach you in the churches you attend? That whole right of passage concept is so ridiculous I'm embarrassed for you that you could even admit publicly that you believe something so ridiculous.

And, moreover, even if 3 people in the history of the universe decided to get pregnant and abort the fetus as a "right of passage," what does that prove? That you are right about everything else you say?

That is the way you argue your points in general. You argue that environmentalists are full of crap because fifty years ago two magazines predicted a new Ice Age and -- see, look how wrong they were. So that means that the overwhelming majority of the scientific community is wrong today about global warming.

And since 3 "feminists" were so wacko that they lined up to get pregnant and have abortions as a right of passage, that means that anyone in favor of a woman's right to choose also must be a wacko feminist.

Where do you get this ridiculous nonsense? You are obviously an intelligent and educated woman. Can't you support your positions with something a little more credible and persuasive? Something that actually does address the areas of legitimate contention? Please, leave this cartoon-level fringe nonsense for your buddies in Bible study.

[AshevilleEddie 14]

Damn, I know this the Rants & Raves section, but some of the comments in this thread are absurd. Gadgetlady, I understand how you feel about abortion. I feel pretty much the same way. There is no way, scientific or otherwise that we can ever know exactly when life begins, so I err on the side of caution and believe that it begins at conception. HOWEVER, NO ONE has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body or anything inside it. Taking away personal rights is your Crisco-laden slippery slope. And as for the abortion clinic protesters who demonize women headed into those clinics, I can speak from personal experience because I've been there - that is exactly what happens. Those women are shown pictures of (supposedly) aborted fetuses and told (screamed at, to be exact) that they are murderers and are going to hell. So don't tell me it doesn't happen that way.

I hate to burst your bubble, but there are people who ARE in favor of abortion. There are some hard-core feminists (forgetting of course that the very first feminists were pro-life) who consider abortion a "right of passage" and have even advocated women who haven't had one getting pregnant on purpose so they can experience abortion.

Are you kidding me? If you're going to have a rational, adult dialogue don't say sh!t like this. You're stooping to a very low level, one to which, from reading many of your posts, you are intelligent and articulate enough to not have to stoop (that was a compliment, BTW...).

[gadgetlady 4]

I'll do this in one fell swoop.

Nat Hentoff, a famous liberal athiest writer for the Village Voice, is a prominent athiest, liberal, pro-lifer.

I didn't say women were lining up to get abortions as a rite of passage. I was saying that some feminists believe it. I don't think it happens a lot, but I was responding to a specific claim that no one ever wants to get an abortion. Sorry, but that's just wrong, and I have a right to point it out. I'm amazed that that statement is getting everyone up in arms. Why should you care?

Why would I be embarrassed to say I've read in feminist literature that fact? I didn't WRITE it; I just read it. And since it was a very serious book, I believe the person writing it. She wasn't a cartoon character. She was a real person.

[anonemouse 1]

Originally Posted by gadgetlady

I hate to burst your bubble, but there are people who ARE in favor of abortion. There are some hard-core feminists (forgetting of course that the very first feminists were pro-life) who consider abortion a "right of passage" and have even advocated women who haven't had one getting pregnant on purpose so they can experience abortion.

Citing a 40 year-old book does not mean that feminists today are encouraging people to get pregnant and have abortions just for the experience. We can go back and forth all day, citing instances where, years ago, certain groups encouraged behavior that we don't consider to be appropriate today. Including Christians. Does that mean that anyone believes that way today? No, and you know that.

[anonemouse 1]

I didn't say women were lining up to get abortions as a rite of passage. I was saying that some feminists believe it. I don't think it happens a lot, but I was responding to a specific claim that no one ever wants to get an abortion. Sorry, but that's just wrong, and I have a right to point it out. I'm amazed that that statement is getting everyone up in arms. Why should you care?

And yet you always get your dander up whenever anyone else stereotypes all Christians by the behavior of a few. Don't you see the hypocrisy here?

[gadgetlady 4]

Anyone care to comment on the book by Ginette Paris called "The Sacrament of Abortion"? Ginette is a feminist and New Age writer (and perhaps also a cartoon character? I don't know) who published the book in 1992, not 40 years ago.

The book I read wasn't this one, because the one I'm citing was from the late '80's (not "40" years ago).

[gadgetlady 4]

And yet you always get your dander up whenever anyone else stereotypes all Christians by the behavior of a few. Don't you see the hypocrisy here?

I don't see any hypocrisy. I asked why "you" (generic) care because many are presenting abortion is a morally neutral issue. Why should it matter if women do it for dire situations or because they want to see what it feels like? That's what I meant by "why should you care?"

[JeninCO 0]

When another person's body is involved, however, that's where I draw the line. And in the case of abortion, another person's body is involved.

And that, quite frankly, is none of your business. If you want to counsel women who've had abortions, great! It's a much needed resource. However, kindly butt out when it comes to telling other people what to do.

A lot of what you say is very sensible, but some of it's just plain nuts, saying feminists use abortion as a right of passage? Where the heck did you get that? That's fundamental crazy talk!

Abortion doctors have no respect for life? What utter nonsense. It's because they revere life and have no desire to see an unwanted child be brought into this world that they do their very difficult but necessary job.

For me, it's the quality of the life, and not just existing for the sake of life is what's important.

This is something on which we'll never agree, but you've certainly created quite the post!

[anonemouse 1]

I don't see any hypocrisy. I asked why "you" (generic) care because many are presenting abortion is a morally neutral issue. Why should it matter if women do it for dire situations or because they want to see what it feels like? That's what I meant by "why should you care?"

That's not what I was asking you about. I was asking if you recognized the hypocrisy in branding all feminists because a few may have some wacky ideas but getting pissed whenever we talk about wackjob Christians because you say we are basically belittling ALL Christians when we do that.

I guess I can say that all Christians believe that gays should all die of AIDS and that they think that 9/11 happened because women in this country have abortions and the gays have "homo-fied" our kids. After all, there are Christians out there that believe that, so all Christians must believe that.

[Carlene 12]

Keep it up. You're going to ensure that a Democrat is elected in 2008.

Best thing I've read on this thread so far!

[Carlene 12]

You know what I find interesting?

The fact that pro-life individuals are so "in-your-face" about abortion being wrong, murder, yada yada yada. The seem to enjoy making persons that are deciding, have decided, or had an abortion to be terrible human beings. There seems to be very little compassion on their end.

Not all of us. It is possible to oppose abortion on demand without getting in anyone's face. It is possible to hate abortion but not be willing to lobby for its repeal. Some of us just wish the pro-choice people would put more emphasis on choosing not to be pregnant BEFORE conception occurs. Then we could stop having this argument.

[anonemouse 1]

Some of us just wish the pro-choice people would put more emphasis on choosing not to be pregnant BEFORE conception occurs.

Most of us do. Part of the problem is that the current administration refuses to see that abstinence-only programs don't work. If I had my way, every single kid in the nation would have to go to a mandatory sex-ed class that actually educates them about sex and the potential dangers, instead of just telling them that "sex is bad, don't have it".

[396power 2]

This is what I believe. It is a woman's right to choose. But just like when someone commits murder. There should be consequences for thier actions.

[gadgetlady 4]

A lot of what you say is very sensible, but some of it's just plain nuts, saying feminists use abortion as a right of passage? Where the heck did you get that? That's fundamental crazy talk!

I don't understand the hot button here! Why are you all judging the author who said women should get abortions as a rite of passage? I did not say this. Someone else said it. WHY SHOULD YOU CARE WHY WOMEN GET ABORTIONS? If there's nothing wrong with abortion and it should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy, who the heck cares why someone chooses to do it?

(or is it that you all, deep down, know there is something just a bit "off" about the procedure and this offends your sensibilities?)