Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

[anonemouse 1]

It is not. It is a violation of the Hippocratic oath. It is a death sentence without a trial.

Well, hell, the whole idea is hypothetical, isn't it? Does it matter that a hypothetical situation is against the Hippocratic oath? It's not like the situation is likely to happen in real life, is it?

Well maybe it should. Seems pretty cut and dried, logical, absent of arbitrary criteria.

Maybe you think it should, but it doesn't. And it isn't "absent of arbitrary criteria". Do you consider life to be the presence of a heart beat or the ability to sustain a heartbeat? There are lots of criteria like those that you have to consider.

[gadgetlady 4]

Sometimes, we have to make hard decisions. The results may make us feel horrible and crappy, but what we should be thinking about are the people that those decisions impact, not how those decisions make us feel. Are they free of pain? I consider it morally bankrupt to keep someone in pain just so that we don't have to make a hard, heart breaking decision.

My parents put me in that position precisely because they knew I would not allow them to be killed. If they didn't want that to be the decision made, they would have selected one of my brothers to be in charge. It's THEIR decision, not mine.

[anonemouse 1]

My parents put me in that position precisely because they knew I would not allow them to be killed. If they didn't want that to be the decision made, they would have selected one of my brothers to be in charge. It's THEIR decision, not mine.

That's true. But what about if it was one of your children? They don't have any choice about whether or not you make that decision for them.

[anonemouse 1]

And a DNR isn't allowing someone to be killed. It's allowing them to die.

[gadgetlady 4]

GL....never say "never". There are circumstances that I'm betting could change your mind. End-stage Cancer, for one. Some types are not so bad, but then again, some are unbelievably painful.

I'm saying never. Those who have the authority to decide for themselves whether they want to give me that authority know that I would never do it, so if they want it done they won't ask me. Because I won't do it.

[Carlene 12]

I do not have the right to decide for another person whether they live or die. Period. I will not make that decision for another person, and I will not pull the trigger (or the cord, as it were) on another person. The people who know me know better than to ask. My parents put me, their youngest, in charge of them in the case of failing health. My two older brothers were none too happy about it. Why am I in charge? Because my parents can trust me not to off them. And so can my husband and so can my children.

Signing a DNR is not the same thing as "pulling the plug". "Do Not Resuscitate" means just that.....if they stop breathing, leave them alone. Do not get out the paddles. Do not initiate CPR. Do not hook them up to a heart/lung machine or a ventilator. It does not mean stop treatment. It does not end life....it just does not prolong it with heroic measures.

[gadgetlady 4]

Well, hell, the whole idea is hypothetical, isn't it? Does it matter that a hypothetical situation is against the Hippocratic oath? It's not like the situation is likely to happen in real life, is it?

Maybe you think it should, but it doesn't. And it isn't "absent of arbitrary criteria". Do you consider life to be the presence of a heart beat or the ability to sustain a heartbeat? There are lots of criteria like those that you have to consider.

Is life only the ability to sustain a heartbeat? If so, there's a whole heck of a lot of people with pacemakers who aren't alive.

It's the presence of a heartbeat.

[gadgetlady 4]

Signing a DNR is not the same thing as "pulling the plug". "Do Not Resuscitate" means just that.....if they stop breathing, leave them alone. Do not get out the paddles. Do not initiate CPR. Do not hook them up to a heart/lung machine or a ventilator. It does not mean stop treatment. It does not end life....it just does not prolong it with heroic measures.

I know what it means. I watched it happen once.

[gadgetlady 4]

That's true. But what about if it was one of your children? They don't have any choice about whether or not you make that decision for them.

You can type until you're blue in the face. You will not hear me say I would allow my children to be "euthanized", and you will not ever, under any circumstances, see me do it. I'm done talking about it.

[Carlene 12]

I'm saying never. Those who have the authority to decide for themselves whether they want to give me that authority know that I would never do it, so if they want it done they won't ask me. Because I won't do it.

I have done it. It's very difficult. If you have never watched someone die by inches, in excruciating pain that cannot be relieved by drugs, short of shutting down their respiratory system, then I can understand why you might think you would never sign a DNR order.

[gadgetlady 4]

I have done it. It's very difficult. If you have never watched someone die by inches, in excruciating pain that cannot be relieved by drugs, short of shutting down their respiratory system, then I can understand why you might think you would never sign a DNR order.

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

[Carlene 12]

IMO, it is incredibly cruel to force a person to live if their life won't be worth living. If my life becomes physically painful to live, I damn well hope someone puts me out of my misery. Being a vegetable from birth isn't life, IMO.

I think there is a huge difference between forcing someone to live and deliberately ending their life.

If you believe that abortion is subverting God's will, you must also believe that forcing someone to live by tethering them forever to a host of machines is, too.

[ready2bthin 2]

For anyone wanting facts on life and on abortion, there is a website that has a ton of information. It's www.lifedynamics.com.

For anyone who has had an abortion and is experiencing guilt, remorse, sadness, depression, etc., please know that there is forgiveness, hope and healing. You do not have to live with this burden any longer. Feel free to private message me if you want to know more. I care and am willing to help.

[anonemouse 1]

Here's another one: www.prochoice.org

[Betsyjane 2]

I had an interesting discussion with a young man (early 20s...I'm an old woman) who said that abortion should be banned because if we still had all of the aborted babies, there would be enough workforce to support social security as the boomers retire. He blames boomers for killing off the workforce that his generation needs now. So we had a discussion solely based on the pragmatics, rather than when life begins or the sanctity of humans. I believe that it's equally likely that that workforce of unwanted children would now be draining social services. Is it possible to have a discussion about what it means for our country to not have abortion...without that discussion seeming too crass? What do we do with additional teenagers having babies they can't afford, not completing their education, living in poverty with babies they don't want? I know that there are other circumstances in which people get abortions, but a lot of abortions do happen because the mother is young and uneducated, and the baby is unwanted. As a society, what should we do with a million more unwanted children a year? What does that do to our money, our standards, our obligation to the moms and babies? If we look for objective hard data about life, might we also need to do so about living?