When the truth is inconvenient . . .

[gadgetlady 4]

Well, I did see a couple of interviews with him on TV. He sounded thoughtful and was very candid and he did explain his reasons for change. It was last year but I remember he talked quite a bit about how he came to the conclusion that nuclear power could be a positive thing. And, after all, France has been using it for years and gets 80% of its energy from that source. It has been proven clean and safe.

My brother, who's a both-feet-in environmentalist, greenpeace-nik, democratic, et al, believes strongly in nuclear power. It's not out of the realm of reality for environmentalists to support it.

[ELENATION 0]

No, the arguement would likely not be civil, and no amount of good material will convince me differently. I have lost someone I loved over there. Nothing will ever convince me it was worthwhile.

It is not an arguement I would even participate in. Besides the fact it is off topic from the thread---sorry 'bout that!

Kat

Please don't be sorry, it's a good thing that we agreed on not participating in a discussion or argument.... definitely a good thing...

And please know that when I argue or debate an issue, I don't do it to try to convince anyone of anything, God knows nobody would convince me of anything, I have to do that on my own...so I don't try to do it to others... when I debate an issue is to put my views out there and exchange different opinions about it and learn about other people's views, actually, most of the times I end up even firmer about my own views after a debate...

I'm sorry about your loss, I haven't lost someone i Iraq, but do know more than one person who were/are serving there, they are very proud to be there doing what they are doing and very proud of what they have accomplished. My father was a WWII veteran, I've learned a little bit about war, I'm aware it's nothing to enjoy, sometimes it has been necessary, unfortunately.

[L8BloomR 1]

*** I really do appreciate your post L8RBloom. I think you are willing to give me the benefit of the doubt when I sound mean. You can't imagine how much your post meant to me.****

I am very, very impressed with the tone and content of West Coast Fat Guy's posts! You are one cool cat as Green would say!

I hear you, BJean....I'm glad you feel better.

I, too, am very impressed with most of the posts here. And thank you, Gadgetlady, for these latest articles. I have heard about the light bulbs and the danger they pose. How awful it would be if it turns out that trying to do good things for the planet could make things worse....

[Kat817 19]

Soon they will have collection bins for us to drop things such as the light bulbs in---so they can be safely dealt with......however that could mean, they will be shipped to China and be part of our kids toys next year......just kidding folks!!!!

Kat

[L8BloomR 1]

Soon they will have collection bins for us to drop things such as the light bulbs in---so they can be safely dealt with......however that could mean, they will be shipped to China and be part of our kids toys next year......just kidding folks!!!!

Kat

:glare:

[gadgetlady 4]

Soon they will have collection bins for us to drop things such as the light bulbs in---so they can be safely dealt with

The problem with the mercury, as I see it, is not with safe disposal (although that IS an issue). The big problem is if you drop them or they otherwise break in your house.

From the Boston Globe article, emphasis mine:

For the Maine study, researchers shattered 65 compact fluorescents to test air quality and cleanup methods. They found that, in many cases, immediately after the bulb was broken - and sometimes even after a cleanup was attempted - levels of mercury vapor exceeded federal guidelines for chronic exposure by as much as 100 times.

"We found some very high levels [of mercury] even after we tried a number of cleanup techniques," said Mark Hyland, director of Maine's Bureau of Remediation and Waste Management. He said levels were the lowest if the room was well ventilated after breakage.

The study recommended that if a compact fluorescent breaks, get children and pets out of the room. Ventilate the room. Never use a vacuum, even on a rug, to clean up a broken compact fluorescent lamps. Instead, use stiff paper such as index cards and tape to pick up pieces, and then wipe the area with a wet wipe or damp paper towel. If there are young children or pregnant woman in the house, consider cutting out the piece of carpet where the lamp broke as a precaution. Place the shards and cleanup debris in a glass jar with a screw top and remove the jar from the house.

I can barely keep my kitchen floor clean as it is. I have enough to do in my life to worry about calling a HazMat team or worrying if I should change the carpet if (when?) I break a light bulb.

[Kat817 19]

My BIL worked for Sylvania for years (long enough to retire)---he changed us all over to fluorescent years ago---I have never broke one, I have a few finally going out now, and actually bought my own for the first time last month. The only time I ever broke a fluorescent bulb--was putting a package of the long skinny ones in the truck, and I guess I thought I was fencing with the cab, I just whacked it---boom--they popped!!

Otherwise, none broken. The dead ones went in a bag---and back to my BIL!!!!

Kat

[WestCoastFatGuy 3]

My brother, who's a both-feet-in environmentalist, greenpeace-nik, democratic, et al, believes strongly in nuclear power. It's not out of the realm of reality for environmentalists to support it.

You are correct that there are environmentalists that support nuclear power. For the record, it's not Patrick Moore's change of view on nuclear power that disturbs me. It's his complete and unwavering support of any corporation (regardless of their negligence) that is willing to hire his firm to be their spin-machine (I've listed a few of them in a previous post); all the while proclaiming his badge of honor as being a co-founder of Greenpeace. I just find it difficult to swallow that every view that he previously held has changed so drastically. Then again, as they say... "money changes everything." Maybe he just got sick and tired of trying to change the world and not getting any financial rewards for doing so.

[WestCoastFatGuy 3]

This whole mercury thing about compact fluorescents is definitely something to be aware of. I was a late bloomer in converting to them because the early ones I tried had awful light. They are much better now and we converted everything over just after Christmas.

I'm really interested in this whole thing about the mercury. I noted in the article that the exposure was 100 times the federal limit for chronic exposure (or exposure repeatedly over longer periods of time). I read the actual study, though, and found that the exposure is still much higher than is recommended even for acute exposure (exposure over short periods of time) and found that very disturbing.

I hope that there is eventually an alternative to these bulbs that is also energy efficient, as I find them very ugly and a pain in my rather ample *ss.

[WestCoastFatGuy 3]

I'm just astounded. I decided to research a bit to see if I could find that quote. What I found was amazing:

Excerpted from ESR | January 28, 2002 | Do animal rights activists care more about animals than human beings? (emphasis mine)

* Lee Ryan, a member of the British boy band Blue, put the comparison in stark and crude language. Ryan, who styles himself an animal rights activist, asked the British tabloid The Sun, "What about whales? They are ignoring animals that are more important. Animals need saving and that's more important . . . Who gives a f--- about New York when elephants are being killed."

* To his credit, animal rights philosopher Peter Singer did criticize the idea of comparing the victims of the September 11 attacks to animals killed for food, but United Poultry Concerns' Karen Davis vigorously denounced Singer for this. According to Davis, "For 35 million chickens in the United States alone, every single night is a terrorist attack." Davis went on to suggest that since most of those who died in the terrorist attacks were likely meat eaters, the attacks may have actually resulted in a net reduction in suffering.

That'll fix us meat eaters! Yeah, that's what the terrorists were doing... getting rid of the chicken torturers! He must have high praise for Osama Bin Laden.

What a freakin' wack-job!

[gadgetlady 4]

My BIL worked for Sylvania for years (long enough to retire)---he changed us all over to fluorescent years ago---I have never broke one

As I tell my kids, just because you've crossed the street dozens of times without getting hit by a car, doesn't mean you could never be hit by a car. Because I don't change the lightbulbs in our house (dh does), I can't speak to slippery fingers, knocked over lamps, overtightening, or dropped boxes. But I'm sure they do happen, even though they haven't happened to you.

For me, the benefits don't outweigh the risks and it's not a risk I'm willing to take.

[gadgetlady 4]

That'll fix us meat eaters! Yeah, that's what the terrorists were doing... getting rid of the chicken torturers! He must have high praise for Osama Bin Laden.

What a freakin' wack-job!

:glare: Thanks for the belly laugh.

[green 6]

I am very interested in this information about the mercury content in compact fluorescent light bulbs. You see, I use quite a few of them in my house for task lighting and I was not aware of the hazmat problems should breakage occur. But much worse is the fact that both our provincial government and our leading environmentalist movement are both actively promoting the use of these bulbs.

As for the production of electricity, I favour nuclear energy plants. Nuclear energy is about the cleanest option available after hydro and geo-thermal. When I was a kid Niagara Falls provided us with our electrical needs but our demands have since far outstripped the production from this source. We now have some very dirty coal burning plants in our neighbourhood and it is taking the province longer than anticipated to replace these monsters.

[gadgetlady 4]

Posted without comment from DailyTech - Temperature Monitors Report Widescale Global Cooling

Twelve-month long drop in world temperatures wipes out a century of warming

Over the past year, anecdotal evidence for a cooling planet has exploded. China has its coldest winter in 100 years. Baghdad sees its first snow in all recorded history. North America has the most snowcover in 50 years, with places like Wisconsin the highest since record-keeping began. Record levels of Antarctic sea ice, record cold in Minnesota, Texas, Florida, Mexico, Australia, Iran, Greece, South Africa, Greenland, Argentina, Chile -- the list goes on and on. No more than anecdotal evidence, to be sure. But now, that evidence has been supplanted by hard scientific fact. All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously.

A compiled list of all the sources can be seen here. The total amount of cooling ranges from 0.65C up to 0.75C -- a value large enough to wipe out nearly all the warming recorded over the past 100 years. All in one year's time. For all four sources, it's the single fastest temperature change ever recorded, either up or down.

Scientists quoted in a past DailyTech article link the cooling to reduced solar activity which they claim is a much larger driver of climate change than man-made greenhouse gases. The dramatic cooling seen in just 12 months time seems to bear that out. While the data doesn't itself disprove that carbon dioxide is acting to warm the planet, it does demonstrate clearly that more powerful factors are now cooling it.

Let's hope those factors stop fast. Cold is more damaging than heat. The mean temperature of the planet is about 54 degrees. Humans -- and most of the crops and animals we depend on -- prefer a temperature closer to 70.

Historically, the warm periods such as the Medieval Climate Optimum were beneficial for civilization. Corresponding cooling events such as the Little Ice Age, though, were uniformly bad news.

[gadgetlady 4]

Does this mean Big Al will be giving his various prizes back???

I have this image of "Big Al" holding an award close to his chest, back slightly turned, while someone tries to yank it out of his hands. In my mental picture, there's a toddler-like temper tantrum occurring as well.

It isn't often I get to use my favorite smiley! :smile2: