When the truth is inconvenient . . .

[green 6]

Some of us are roughly in the same age bracket...does anyone know how our push to remove flouro-carbons from hairspray and deoderant impacted the environment. I so clearly remember the beginning of Earth Day...well, maybe not all that clearly, but somewhere around the age of 13 or so. We were going to save the world and clean it up, and one of the first things to do was get rid of that spray deoderant. Was that the culprit? If so, shouldn't things be improved? No one uses spray deoderant anymore, do they?

That said, I do enjoy the personal challenge of keeping power cost low, and also compost for the yard/garden...the computers probably suck the most power around here (in more ways than one!) :heh:

I like hearing what you all have to say. It really touches me that we are all concerned with this business of thinking about what we might personally do to engage with respecting our environment and each other. Such efforts are important on ever so many levels, aren't they? Though I am (by temperament) one of those sour types, I must say that this has been a fine thread and one which has warmed the nasty Green on the deepest level.

[green 6]

Green had been doing the compost thang for a long time before her city got into the game. The City of Toronto will accept used kitty litter, paper towels, paper tissue, diapers, sanitary napkin waste along with the usual stuff: coffee grains, used tea bags, left-over vegetable stuff, and animal bones, fat, etc. Needless to say, she wouldn't chuck a lot of this gross, vomit-making shit into her backyard. Who fucken would, eh?

[gadgetlady 4]

Wouldn't it be a sneaky coup if the guy who owned the first non-environmentally-friendly house in the example also made a big hoop-la about being "green" and then invested in a bunch of companies that produced the products or provided the services he advocated? What a windfall that would be for such a snea . . . um . . . environmentally friendly guy . . .

[jono201 0]

We are energy whores....all of us. The average home built today has 5 times as many electrical outlets as one built 50 years ago. I think it's a safe assumption to say that we probably use 5 times as much electricity as our parents/grandparents did. At least 5 times.

My mom's house, where I grew up, had no computer, one refrigerator, one phone, no video games, no DVD recorder/player, one TV, no kitchen counter appliances (slow cookers, food processors, etc), no electric toothbrushes, no rechargeable anything, no garage door opener, and until I was almost grown, no clothes dryer or dishwasher.

My house has 4 TVs, 3 cell phones (w/chargers), 5 cordless phones (w/chargers), 3 DVD players, 3 computers, two refrigerators, and a whole host of bathroom and kitchen appliances. My kitchen has 11 (double) wall outlets. I have dusk-to-dawn landscape lighting in my front yard and a security light in back, plus a flagpole that is lighted. My neighbors have swimming pools with electric powered waterfalls and hot tubs, plus the filters, cleaners, etc. And Water features (with or without Koi pond) are very popular in my area.

Whatever happens, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Yes we are energy whores all. Other than that, I will not reply on this thread cuz Charlene is doing a good job. See you all on Huffpo.

[green 6]

Oh, but this is so true! One of the reasons I was so thrilled with my latest house, a renovated Edwardian 3-story house, was that this shack bristles with outlets. Though we only have one television that we actually use, we have two computers and are fond of lamps, stereophonic equipment, fans (in addition to A/C), and various gadgets and labour-saving devices. And in addition to all this my tenant has a couple of computers, an aquarium the size of a coffin with all the pumps and heating devices to make it work, and her own array of gadgets.

I always remember that my mother used to hang her laundry in the furnace room in the winter and outside in the summer. I use the dryer all year round except for the few things which will not survive. Those garments I hang up in the bath and over the stair rails. During our hot summers this seems oh so stupid to me and yet I find myself doing it anyway.

This all comes down to the tragedy of laziness for, you see, my laundry room is on the second floor and is convenient to all the sources of dirty laundry but pretty far away from my backyard. Now, I believe that a certain amount of laziness is likely inherent in most if not all of us; modern technology has made it easier for us to avail ourselves of short-cuts. These short-cuts were initially viewed as being a gift to those of us who could take advantage of them and some of them may well be. Working from home and cyber-commuting will certainly cut down on car travel, fossil fuel consumption, environmental pollution, and the loss of time which the wage-earners might be spending with their families and in their own communities.

On the other hand, you have individuals who prefer to use the energy-guzzling dryer all year round. And the shower, an invention which was initially seen as having the benefit of being easier on Water consumption than a bath, has, it seems, kinda backfired. It is so easy to hop into a shower that we clean-minded folks find themselves taking many more of them.

It is always interesting to visit other parts of the world, ones which are productive but which lack the same easy and comparatively cheap access to energy sources which we have, in order to see how they deal with their energy needs. France and the U.K. have gas-fired hot water heaters; the holding tanks are much smaller and these are only heated when there is a demand for hot water. While I lived in France I never met anyone who had a clothes dryer. People had retractable clothes' lines in their bathrooms. And as you may know, most of France's electrical energy comes from nuclear plants.

In Turkey, a country with no natural power sources, there are water cisterns and banks of solar panels on top of most apartment roofs. These feed into individual apartments and are heated by the solar panels.

Often much older houses were built in such a way that they were able to be cool in the summer and warm in the winter. This is the sort of dwelling that we can find in the older parts of the world, in parts of Europe and in Mexico, too. But much of Canada and the United States has been built more recently, during the era where energy was cheap and seemed both limitless and benign and while we had a deep mistrust of anything which wasn't modern.

I have a few personal examples to offer. I was in Mexico a week ago and I travelled up into the mountains behind Puerto Vallarta. I found myself in a little village and the sun was very, very hot. I went into someone's home and this house was cool and breezy.

My second example has to do with my own street: one of the reasons I fell in love with my street was that it was lined with mature Norwegian Maples, a tree which grows to a height of 5 to 6 stories in height. The street was shady and quiet in the summer and in winter, after a snowfall, it was like walking down the nave of a gothic cathedral. Sadly, over the years that I have lived here many of these trees have reached the end of their lives and have had to be cut down. Now, the point which I would like to make is that those houses which no longer are sheltered by the shade of one of these trees are the ones who now have central A/C. My house is one of those which has A/C.

I am aware that this has been an awfully long post and that my comments have been very random but I believe that the point that I wish to make is this: scientific progress and knowledge are always valuable but it is also valuable to examine traditional folkways in addition to other approaches as well.

This question of energy consumption and its possible effect on global warming is an interesting one. Whether or not our behaviour is a cause of the current trend to the over-heating of this planet and whether we can now alter this state of affairs by reigning in our behaviour is moot. Certainly it is true that we can halt environmental pollution by amending our behaviour and this is a good idea. Afterall, this world is our sandbox and we do not want to turn it over to the next generation full of our shit, do we?

[jono201 0]

GREEN WROTE: This question of energy consumption and its possible effect on global warming is an interesting one. Whether or not our behaviour is a cause of the current trend to the over-heating of this planet and whether we can now alter this state of affairs by reigning in our behaviour is moot. Certainly it is true that we can halt environmental pollution by amending our behaviour and this is a good idea. Afterall, this world is our sandbox and we do not want to turn it over to the next generation full of our shit, do we.

Unfortunatly under the guise of conservative ideology certain people do not care about the future or as you so eloquently put it, a cat box full of poo that we will eventually leave our children. No matter why or what is causing it, global warming is a fact-it has been measured many different ways, by 1000s of experts in the field after years of peer- reviewed debate. Is it natural?-is it human conduct?, I have formed my opinion based on scientific facts as I accept them. Am I wrong? I would rather be a be a guardian of this earth and a person who takes steps now (today) then give children ( all children around the world) a box of poo. Would you all feel the same way if the info from Former Vice President Gore came from a person that shared your political views (admittedly, what I imagine those to be).

[Carlene 12]

Household Appliances:

Aquarium

= 50-1210 Watts

Clock radio

= 10

coffee maker

= 900-1200

Clothes washer

= 350-500

Clothes dryer

= 1800-5000

Dishwasher

= 1200-2400 (using the drying feature greatly increases energy consumption)

Dehumidifier

= 785

Electric blanket

- Single/Double = 60 / 100

Ceiling

fan

= 65-175

Window

fan

= 55-250

Furnace

= 750

Whole house

= 240-750

hair dryer

= 1200-1875

Heater

(portable) = 750-1500

Clothes Iron

= 1000-1800

Microwave oven

= 750-1100

Personal Computer

:

CPU - awake / asleep = 120 / 30 or less

Monitor - awake / asleep = 150 / 30 or less

Laptop = 50

Radio

(stereo) = 400

Refrigerator

(frost-free, 16 cubic feet) = 725

Television

(color):

19" = 110

27" = 113

36" = 133

53"-61" Projection = 170

Flat Screen = 120

Toaster

= 800-1400

Toaster Oven

= 1225

VCR/DVD

= 17-21 /20-25

Vacuum cleaner

= 1000-1440

Water heater

(40 gallon) = 4500-5500

Water pump

(deep well) = 250-1100

Water bed

(w/ heater, no cover) = 120-380

[MyKdsDad 1]

Let's see.....

Aquarium = nope

Clock radio = 10

coffee maker = 900-1200

Clothes washer = 350-500

Clothes dryer = 1800-5000

Dishwasher = 1200-2400 (using the drying feature greatly increases energy consumption)

Dehumidifier = nope

Electric blanket - nope

Ceiling fan = 65-175

Window fan = nope

Furnace = 750

Whole house = 240-750

hair dryer = 1200-1875

Heater (portable) = 750-1500

Clothes Iron = nope

Microwave oven = 750-1100

Personal Computer:

CPU - awake / asleep = 120 / 30 or less

Monitor - awake / asleep = 150 / 30 or less

Laptop = nope

Radio (stereo) = nope

Refrigerator (frost-free, 16 cubic feet) = 725

Television (color):

19" = nope

27" = 113

36" = nope

53"-61" Projection = heck no

Flat Screen = nope (I wish)

Toaster = nope

Toaster Oven = nope

VCR/DVD = 17-21 /20-25

Vacuum cleaner = nope (wife said, "A what?")

Water heater (40 gallon) = 4500-5500

Water pump (deep well) = nope

Water bed (w/ heater, no cover) = nope

[green 6]

Well, our household operates without a hairdryer, an electric blanket, a Water pump, a clock radio, and a dishwasher since ours went on the fritz last fall. We have a vaccuum but don't vaccuum as often as we should!

We only use one TV but our tenant also one, too, and between the 3 of us there are 3 active computers in the house. She also has an aquarium which is the size of a coffin.

As for fossil fuel consumption, we only use my husband's truck - which has an in-line 6 engine - for him to get to work or us to go to his parents' cottage.

I should mention that we also use a lot of fluorescent and halogen light bulbs. All of this sounds okay but for the past four months our energy consumption has risen by between 100 and 150 kw per month as compared to our consumption at the same time a year ago. I am both baffled and dismayed by this.

[BJean 16]

You're going to love this. When we lived in Orlando one of the groups I worked with engaged the head of our city recycle department to speak to us so that we might learn how to be better recycle citizens.

He spent nearly 45 minutes explaining the system and the fact that we had just too many recycled items for them to manage. We all sat there with our mouths hanging open in shock and during the question and answer session one person stood and asked him pointed questions to make sure that we were hearing him right. Yes indeed, he said, it would be better if we just did NOT use our recycle bins. The stuff was coming to them in such massive quantities that they weren't sure how they were ever going to be able to effectively and affordably deal with it. That was about 7 years ago and I am not sure how they ever did deal with it, but I hope that they have done something to rectify the situation by now.

Where we live currently, you are charged an extra $2 per month if you recycle and you must buy the recycle bins before you can participate. That's discouraging for some people.

I know all the problems with SUVs and how much environmentalists hate them. I do too, except for the fact that we're all expected to drive on the same highways as huge semi-tractor trailers hauling everything from tissue paper to massive Iron and concrete conduits. If you are involved with one of them in an accident, you have a far less chance of survival if you are in a compact, economical car, than if you are in a great big SUV.

I say make the semi rigs' speed limit lower than cars and enact and enforced a law that they must stay in the right lane except when they need to pass another car. That is how it works on the Autobann in Germany and they have fewer problems than we do. It would slow down you getting your tomatoes quite as fresh from the growers, but not by much. If the semi transporting your tomatoes is involved in an accident, your tomatoes will probably not arrive at all.

If I didn't have to worry about the maniacal truck drivers whipping back and forth, going well over the speed limit, traveling so fast that they can't possibly stop quickly enough to avoid hitting a stopped or slowing vehicle, then I would be much more willing to drive a smaller car with better gas mileage. I don't like having to fill the gas tank of our SUV as much as Al Gore might not like me to.

Anybody relieved that many of the fast food joints stopped using styrofoam containers? Well, except Chik-fil-A. They're still huge offenders.

I know this is an unpopular proposal but if all of the ultra convenient drive-thru places would close their drive-thru windows, it would save a whole lot. No more burning gas while sitting in line at McDonalds, at the bank or the dry cleaners. Plus we'd have to get our fat butts out of our cars and move them more instead of sitting on them so much. Good for bandsters (who probably shouldn't be spending much time at fast food places anyway.)

Another negative I might mention about those energy sucking clothes dryers is that many of us can't hang our wash out to dry. Except for when I was growing up, I've never lived in a neighborhood where outside clothes lines are permissible. I've lived out in the country too but in 2 acre sized lot neighborhoods, not just out on open land. Every neighborhood I've lived in has written in their covenants and restrictions a very specific clause about clothes lines not being allowed in any form.

Ok. Now I'll shut up.

Except for one thing. Someone asked a retorical question but one I'd like to answer: You can bet your sweet patooty that if it were George W. Bush who was on the green bandwagon that those who are critical here of Al Gore's efforts would be supporting environmental issues right along with Dubya. But how likely is it for the wealthy to be interested in being "inconvenienced" with issues like these? I know I don't need to bother answering that question.

[Carlene 12]

Great post, BJ.....simply GREAT!

Our city encourages recycling. The bins are free...you just have to go to the City Hall and they will give you as many as you need. We have three, and the truck comes once a week. Ours are always all full. Recycling is not free, of course. We all pay high garbage/sewer fees and part of that, in turn, funds the recycling program. But the non-participants get charged the same as those of us who do our part for Mother Earth. Some cities make you buy special bags for recycled stuff. I think that discourages the practice.

Wal Mart recycles plastic bags. I love that, as we aren't supposed to put them in our recycle bins. I store mine in the garage and take them back to Wally World about once a month.

I, too, hate the big rigs. They are the most aggressive drivers on the road. And I am often forced to drive "the tunnel" between two of them on the freeway. I really hate that!

The city I used to live in limits vehicles (by law) to one for each bedroom in your house. We had 4 bedrooms and 4 vehicles for years. My (4) kids were close together in age, so there was a period of time when we had 5 vehicles, but no one turned us in. (The car insurance bill was our second highest expense each month - the mortgage being number one.) Our area has no public transportation, so we are all gas-guzzlers. I wish it were otherwise. I am envious of the Metro system in DC. Hardly anyone needs more than one car!

[BJean 16]

Jack you're confused. Get a grip, son. No one suggested that Bush had a thing to do with homeowners' groups banning clothes lines. I may choose to bash Bush from time to time, but only for the things he is actually responsible for. Not trumped up stuff. Just because he is not a card carrying Sierra Club member, doesn't mean he's endorsing every convenience we've managed to invent that is not environmentally friendly. I'll leave that tactic to those who do it so well... Republicans.

Carlene: Thanks.

[BJean 16]

Well I keep a copy of giant copy of Webster's DeLuxe Unabridged Dictonary right at my elbow and open it quite often when I'm posting. Which one are you using? semi-sarcasm

Seriously guy, you and I are definitely on different wave lengths, in more ways than just word definitions. I've noticed it on many occasions. Once in a while though I think we are so moved (read incensed) by something the other has posted, we just can't let it go without posting some kind of rebuttal.

If it really bothers you, I will be happy to just ignore your posts and keep my yap shut. I really don't need to spend the time when it is obvious that neither of us is going to influence the other, in this lifetime.

You sound like a decent chap and I confess to enjoying some of your posts. So I won't stop reading them, just stop responding to them. You can do the same for me, if you choose to. Live and let live, I say.

[Jachut 487]

<p>Just goes to show we can ALL pull our socks up somewhere. </p> <p> </p> <p>I am quite passionate about disposable diapers and how bad they are not only for the environment but for babies' health. I wish nobody would EVER use them, they're evil. Got into some quite passionate debates online about that during the time I was involved in making hemp diapers as a home business. Cant see why in the world an educated person would put plastic, paper and chemicals on a baby's bottom. I buy curly lighbulbs and I recycle.</p> <p> </p> <p>BUT - we forget to turn off said lightbulbs, often have 3 televisions and a computer on, always use the dryer because I can be bothered hanging the washing out and drive around in a big 4WD rather than a smaller more economical car.</p> <p> </p> <p>I dont think any of us could say we cant improve somewhere along the line and Mr Gore is the same as the rest of us. Probably should be a bit more careful though, lol.</p>

[BJean 16]

Jachut: I agree that disposable diapers are a blight! When my son was a baby, I tried to use Pampers (the ones available at the time) and he broke out in blisters every place the diaper touched him. I was forced to use cloth diapers and I wound up being very happy about it. Folding them was down time for watching a soap opera and I was able to save some money by not buying all those disposable ones. We could all do it again, but I would be very surprised if the idea is well received though. Disposable ones are very convenient and so many families today are able to afford them that the money isn't a consideration. Just as with many other convenient, though irresponsible items today.

Which brings us to sanitary napkins and other such items. I guess if we are going to expect mothers to give up their convenient disposable diapers, women can give up disposable monthly conveniences. Whoa you say? Well I can remember my mother telling me that her mother didn't have packaged sanitary items. They tore cotton material in strips and used those. Sort of a frightening concept if you ask me. But hey, alls I'm sayin' is....saving the environment for our babies babies.

BTW, I've never heard of hemp diapers. I can't get a mental picture of that. When you're done with one can you smoke it?