"Savage Nation"

[marjon9 6]

Mark, what part of your post did I not address? I do enjoy the discussion; otherwise I would not participate. Even when I enjoy it, I sometimes do not participate, because I do need to do housekeeping things from time to time, and run the family's errands.

I brought up Jack's stuff again, because I thought it was good stuff. Worthy of discussion...it was getting buried in all these other posts and I didn't want it to be overlooked.

I see you did respond. Our posts crossed in cyberspace

[TommyO 5]

I sense that your response to my post was sarcastic and as such I think I need to respond in kind. I am not niave enough to beleive that bad people don't exist in this world but I bet their opinions are a lot closer to yours than mine.

The old, looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quack likes a duck thing. If you talk like the bad guys and act like the bad guys it's not long before you are viewed as ______ fill in the blanks.

See what happens when we treat people with a lack of respect!!!!!

[marjon9 6]

While I agree with the concept and laud the notion we should treat others per the golden rule, etc.....this escapes the nature of the jihadi movement.

Their scriptures and entire teaching is based on a different system than the Western world. While there are rather violent passages in the bible, it is rare to hear of roving bands of Christians blowing up bus loads of their countrymen because they are not strict enough. Scan the headlines of the world news papers in the Drudge site; easily available, and list how many notices there are of each group.

ALL non-Muslims are defined as 'infidel', and the way in which such MUST be treated prevents such social contracts of 'be nice' from being successful. This faction wants our hearts and souls to be Muslim. Their version of Muslim.

Pretending we can change their minds by being nice, denies what their imman tells them daily. Jihadis have a goal that does not compromise.

Their culture has a special word to identify a lie that is told to further their goal.

There only these choices: 1) conversion; 2) submission; 3) death. There are no other choices in Jihadi teachings.

This violent faction are the ones creating problems around the globe. Their goal is to create a new Caliphate, with the entire world converted.

If you can present a realistic alternative in dealing with an implacable foe of everything you believe, I would love to hear it.

Before a realistic alternative can be offered, I feel like we really need to be talking about the same topic. I agree completely with everything you wrote above. But the point I am making has nothing to do with any of that.

The point I am making is this: There is a vast sea of "rank and file" Muslims, for lack of a better term, who are not "yet" jihadists. I think it is fair to say that most Iraqis used to fit that category before the present conflict. Those moderate, "undecided" Muslims are being herded over to the extremist camp in part because of the actions and policies of the U.S. If I advocate "being nice" to Muslims, it is this group of undecideds that I would seek to target. If our policies demonstrate understanding, respect, and good will, instead of arrogance and brute force, and if our policies encourage economic development and jobs instead of breaking down the front door of civiliian homes and terrorizing children, and humiliating people and torturing people with dogs in prisons, I feel like we would MAKE OURSELVES SAFER. My point here is not to apply the "golden rule" to Muslims. My point here is to survive. I don't want millions more young angry (intelligent) Muslims despising Americans with every Fiber of their being. Creating that reality in this world just does not make any sense.

Now, I fully expect that you will disagree with what I am saying. But, at least, lets talk about the same topic. I am simply not disagreeing with you that extremist muslim jihadists are impossible to retrieve. I agree with you on that. There is no point in repeating this again. My argument goes, instead, to the idea that we should not be making millions MORE extremist jihadists who will then come after us with all their ingenuity for generations to come. I oppose herding the undecideds over to the extremist camp through the arrogant and ill-conceived displays of brute force from the likes of Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush.

[marjon9 6]

Great. we have some agreement. And I share your concerns on the rest of the non-jihadis. And we shouldn't be actively driving them against us.

How do you deal with these ideas:

1) Jihadis are actively creating as much chaos as possible inciting civil conflict in Iraq;

In Iraq I don't believe it's just a Jihadi thing in that way. Yes, some of them are trying to make sure the "West" does not succeed in creating a stable society in Iraq. But I also think that it's now mainly a civil war.

And the argument can be made that there is not much the U.S. can do to control a civil war. But this argument is not very impressive when you see that American incompetence created the conditions for this civil war. If the U.S. had gone in with enough force to control the anarchy, and then started meaningful, open-minded dialogue with all factions in Iraq, and including Iraq's neighbors, we would have had a vastly greater chance of really making this thing work.

2) The elected government of Iraq continues to request US presence;

While this may be true, it is not that impressive an argument to me. I think this government was largely established by the U.S. It was an election, but the U.S. made the rules for the original appointed government. The present government evolved from that. And I also don't find it that impressive that the Iraqi government requests our presence, in light of the fact that they'd all be slaughtered in 45 minutes if we left.

3) The express goal of US policy has always been to leave ASAP;

Again, that's a bit of a big "so what." U.S. incompetence has made that impossible. It's not enough to say that it is the U.S. goal to leave. You have to take intelligent action to create the conditions where that is possible.

4) Success or failure of the jihadis in Iraq will have large effects on their larger goals;

That may be true, but it is U.S. incompetence that created the conditions for the massive number of jihadis, that we now use as an excuse to continue staying in Iraq.

5) Many of the Iraqi jihadis are drawn from other countries; it serves a useful purpose for them to be gathered in a more concentrated region;

This is a really good argument against U.S. policy. The only reason these Jihadis are "drawn" to Iraq from other countries is because of the presence of U.S. troops, and the chaos created in Iraq by U.S. incompetence. It may be that we need to stay now to barely try to hang on in order to avoid an international catastrophe of gargantuan proportions. But since we caused the problem, it's just not a really exciting reason for why we have to stay.

6) at least SOME of the criticism about hatred of US is misunderstood, in that the crimes by Jihadis against the civilians ARE known by the Iraqis themselves, and at least SOME of the reports of increasing cooperation and effectiveness of the Iraqi resistance to such reflects growing support for US policy, not less;

I'll have to take your word for that, because I don't see it. I know people like McCain and a few others are talking about all the progress we are making thanks to the "surge." But I listen to CNN and other stations with reporters on the ground who repeatedly state that they see no progress, and that McCain and his buddies should share whatever it is they are smoking.

I believe the efforts to respect mosques, etc and some of the Iraqi traditions by our military, demonstrates what many of those 'undecided' want to see; we are not assaulting their religion, we are assaulting the thugs who are trying to take over their country.

Again, I just don't see this outpouring of support and goodwill directed toward Americans and U.S. policy in Iraq. Let me know what news sources I should be looking at, and I'll check it out. To date, I have not seen any of what you are describing.

Of note is the marked difference between Jay Gardiner and Paul Bremer in their versions of the Coalition Provisional Authority. Perhaps any differences the potential results is moot.

In any case, do you not believe it is significant, that the Iraqis have in fact elected their own government? Does not the increasing presence of Iraqi police and army elements taking an ever larger role signify total failure of US policy?

In the overall context of things, with the chaos on the ground in Iraq and the scores of people being blown up every day on all sides, I just have a hard time getting excited about how the Iraqis elected their government. I think the people were with us on that, with the blue fingers in the air, and all that. But we shattered all those dreams with our Rumsfeld and Cheney arrogance and incompetence. I wish these people well, and I hope there is something we can still do to help. But it is hard to stop a ten ton granite boulder that is rolling down a steep hill. It might have been possible to stop it from rolling in the first place with a little bit of common sense. But now, it looks like it's too late to me. I hope I'm wrong.

Do you believe US support for Iraqi people and the attempts to include the various factions in one government, not worth the effort?

It was a good idea at the beginning. But the realities on the ground have now spiraled out of control. It's hard to care about what color the drapes should be when the house is on fire.

And do you believe those very Muslims you speak about, more likely to recognize what they are gaining thru the US effort?

I have seen no evidence of that for a very long time now. I think they once had some hope. I think that hope is now irretrievably shattered. And it's our fault.

I agree building trade/jobs etc is needed. Perhaps the real arrogance US has, is believing it can change the basic social fabric, where there is a marked difference in economics, law and civil rights, education, etc.

Are we sounding closer together?

I think we are close together in our desire for a good outcome in Iraq, but I think there may still be quite a divergence with respect to our views on the causes of the problems we face today, and way forward from here.