Rights of Medical Providers

[DerickM 1]

by the logic I am reading, then a doctor has a RIGHT to perfom ANY procedure he wishes. Including abortions and sex-changes (two common operations many fanatics want to ban) Thanks for the new argument guys

[green 6]

(emphasis my own)

What about the rights of the pharmacist who is already here? Should she be forced to provide an abortion method?

What about the right to choose on the part of any medical provider? The provider pays the price as well if she is forced to go against her morality and if she literally believes she is killing something. Why is it only the patient that gets to choose what SHE wants and everyone else is just out of luck and has no rights?

I know full well that an abortion is not murder, it does not come near fitting the criteria. If I was a pharmacist I don't think I would have a problem dispensing the morning after pill. But later than a couple of months and I would flat out refuse to participate in a given procedure. And you know why? As a medical provider I too, am a real person that is already here and I have my own morality. I shouldn't be forced to cross those lines.

Well it is precisely for that reason that I terminated my comments by saying - and this was the bit that you had omitted from your quote - that 'I cannot put myself in the shoes of the opposition,' and that 'I really don't know how to view these problems.'

Life in the city is certainly a whole lot easier for everyone. Folks who feel uncomfortable with aiding and abetting abortions or same sex marriages don't have to. Folks who want or feel that they need these services can go elsewhere and easily get 'em. I would venture to say that there may be no room for homosexuals or liberals or pregnant teenage girls in small town Canada even though choice and same sex civil marriage are legal rights in this country. As for where you live, BubbleButt, I gather that homosexuals are not entirely welcome, eh.:speechles

[BJean 16]

Ugh. I've read this thread and what disgusts me most are the comments that "this is not about abortion." It is TOTALLY about abortion. From time to time stuff gets thrown in that isn't verbatim about abortion, but if this isn't a discussion on abortion, I don't know what is.

Why is everyone so afraid to discuss it for what it is? They know that there will be lots of heat from both sides of the argument. I realize that Bubble says that the argument is all about whether a doctor should be compelled to perform a medical procedure that goes against his moral convictions, and whether a pharmacist should be compelled to dispense a drug that goes against his moral convictions.

If that were REALLY the issue, why not just say THAT?

Personally I think there is way too much interference today in what Americans can and can't do that should be guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. I don't think that any physician should be compelled to perform a procedure that goes against his values. I don't think that a pharmacist should take a job where he will be expected to dispense a certain drug without disclosing to the employer that he will refuse to dispense a drug if it is against his morals, before he takes the job.

It isn't the job of the physician to ensure that a woman be given a drug that causes spontaneous abortion or to perform an abortion procedure even if he's the only doctor in town. The woman who became pregnant, even if by rape, is responsible for seeking help within the community, if possible, or outside the community, if necessary.

Just so you know a little more about what I believe: I believe it is every woman's right to be able to make the decision of whether or not to have an abortion or take an abortion inducing drug.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Should pharmacists or doctors take jobs knowing that a percentage of the time they will have to go against their moral values?

What happens when Christians of high moral quality start studying to become pharmacists just so that they can refuse to dispense certain prescriptions?

Do you know how many cities and towns in the USA have a lock on keeping doctors and nurses and pharmacists out who disagree with the town's high moral values?

If a woman is raped and can not afford the bus fare to the other side of the state or another state, should she be required to pay for raising an unwanted child, a child that reminds her of being raped everyday that she sees him/her? And all because it offended the pharmacist's higher moral values?

Could you imagine raising a biracial son in a town that hates Blacks, but hates biracial children even more, because a pharmacist didn't think he had to do the job he was hired to do because of high moral values?

Do the pharmacist's high moral values include telling the local bigots to leave the child alone or to tell the local people that "we should help the women with expenses for food" and maybe even for council for the women?

"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" is what I say to pharmacists. Instead, they are coming into the kitchen to make it hotter and hotter.

I may believe in Jesus, but I do not think that Jesus said that people should punish other people based on their interpretation of moral values.

[BJean 16]

TOM: What if you were called upon to service the airplane that was going to be used to whisk all the Bin Ladens back to Saudi Arabia (or wherever) the day after 9/11? What if you thought there was a very good chance that one or all of those people had information leading to Osama's hiding place? What if they were known to have been involved in the financing of 9/11? Would you want to be compelled to service that plane by the government even though it would go against everything you believe in?

What if it was your job to service the airplane that was going to drop a nuclear bomb right smack dab in the middle of Iran?

Is there ever a scenario where you would be called upon to go against your better judgment or moral values?

As far as the gal who became impregnated with an unwanted child, most towns have people with a conscience who would be more than happy to help her get to a doctor who would perform her abortion. If a doctor disagreed morally with my decision to have an abortion, you can bet your sweet life I wouldn't want that dude touching me.

As for the pharmasist, what is wrong with someone choosing not to compromise their moral values? Do you honestly think that we're going to have a massive onslaught of people wanting to become pharmasists just so that they can refuse to dispense that drug? As long as a person makes his or her wishes known about his intention not to dispense a drug before he is hired, I believe he has the right to back away from a job that compels him to dispense it as much as I believe that the company can not hire him based on his refusal. The whole thing could wind up back in the Surpreme Court, couldn't it?

Well I guess that may be exactly what they're real intentions are. They've pretty well managed to stack the deck in the Supreme Court, so if that happens, my children will finally understand what it is like for there to be back alley abortions and women who do them submerged in a piping hot bathtub with a coat hanger.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Those were nice tries, but I never know who is going to fly in the planes that I fix, except when we were working on Military Charter planes (MATS). Well, they were our planes, but we chartered them to the US Military to fly US troops back and forth. I worked on MATS during the Vietnam war and during Gulf War l.

I did not refuse to work on the planes even though I was against the war in Vietnam and would have refused induction. I had and knees plus my father was killed in action in WWll, so I was 4A, and had very little chance of being drafted.

It would be impossible to know that someone had a nuke and was going to use it on the flight, but I will play along:

An Al-Quiada terrorist is on board and going to nuke NYC as the plane flies over it. I know this for a fact. Of course I would stop the plane, but that is not moral conviction.

If you come to visit Tina and I, and fall into our swimming pool and suck a lung full of Water, it is not moral conviction for me to rescue you.

It is not moral conviction to stop a killing. Killing is against the law.

Abortion and day after pills are not against the law.

When the freedom riders and the people who staged lunch counter sit-ins were arrested in the 1960's during the civil rights protests, it was because of moral conviction, but they knew it was against the law and took the penalty by spending the night or week or whatever on jail. The tide turned because the American public saw the police turning huge dogs and fire hoses on little children, so the law was changed.

These pharmacists do not want to pay the penalty for standing up for their moral convictions. I was ready to go to jail rather than go to Vietnam. Civil rights demonstrators were ready to go to jail for their moral convictions.

But these pharmacists want to refuse to do their job (dispensing prescription), while they want to keep their job and are not ready to go to jail for their moral convictions.

You can not have it both ways.

[BJean 16]

It's definitely a hot issue. If there were no threat of Roe v. Wade being overturned, the issue wouldn't be so hot.

I can understand a people's ethics and not believing in women's ability to get an abortion. I can understand why you wouldn't want to have your taxes go to fund a poor woman's abortion. I wish there were some way that some of you could really understand what it means to some women. You can't, so I won't.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

The problem is not funding of abortions with tax dollars. That is another myth used to inflame the public.

THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT WANTS ABORTION, MORNING AFTER pills, BIRTH CONTROL AND SEX EDUCATION MADE ILLEGAL.

[Carlene 12]

Should pharmacists or doctors take jobs knowing that a percentage of the time they will have to go against their moral values?

How many people NEVER have an ethics question arise at work? Were you ever asked to "cover" for one of your men who called in sick, when you knew they weren't really sick? Did any of your men steal time from the company by sleeping on the job? Or how about those 2-3 hour "lunches"? Did you ever have knowledge of someone who scanned another employee's badge for him/her? If you EVER lied, stole, covered up the truth or failed to report any of the above, then you went against your moral values on the job.

What happens when Christians of high moral quality start studying to become pharmacists just so that they can refuse to dispense certain prescriptions?

That's just ridiculous and you know it.

Do you know how many cities and towns in the USA have a lock on keeping doctors and nurses and pharmacists out who disagree with the town's high moral values?

How many? Please tell us. And please provide some documentation.

If a woman is raped and can not afford the bus fare to the other side of the state or another state, should she be required to pay for raising an unwanted child, a child that reminds her of being raped everyday that she sees him/her? And all because it offended the pharmacist's higher moral values?

Why do you people always insist on playing the rape card? VERY few abortions are performed on rape victims. Any female who presents herself to a hospital following a rape will NOT get pregnant. A D&C is routinely done, which prevents the lining of the uterus from accepting the embryo.

And as for the other 99.9% of the women who have abortions, why should she NOT have to bear some responsibility for her own actions/choices? It is not up to the pharmacist to protect her from herself.

Could you imagine raising a biracial son in a town that hates Blacks, but hates biracial children even more, because a pharmacist didn't think he had to do the job he was hired to do because of high moral values?

So you believe that a white woman who lives in a town that hates black people should not marry a black man and voluntarily have children?

"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" is what I say to pharmacists. Instead, they are coming into the kitchen to make it hotter and hotter.

Pharmacists do not become pharmacists just so they have an opportunity to make social statements regarding BC pills. Do Muslims become butchers just so they can refuse to sell pork?

I may believe in Jesus, but I do not think that Jesus said that people should punish other people based on their interpretation of moral values.

I was the director of a social services agency for 15 years. I had a nifty little referral book, in which was listed every conceivable type of free/low-cost assistance in the county. I even had one for the next county over. If I had a client who wanted an abortion but had no money, was I obligated to help her obtain one? This only happened once in all that time, but the client was angry in general and looking for someone to take it out on. She was also almost 6 months pregnant. She made a complaint to my bosses - an 11 member Board of Directors elected from the community (generally church members, but rarely Catholics). The board voted to support my decision. Were they wrong? Bear in mind....it is an ex-communicable offense if I actively participate in performing or securing an abortion. The personal consequences, for me, would have been devastating. The client, on the other hand, had the option of securing abortion clinic information from any number of other sources, including the phone book (and I offered to give her our yellow pages). Do you really believe I wanted to punish this woman? I respected her decision to abort her pregnancy because I did not attempt to talk her out of it. I did not quote the Bible to her, nor did I put a guilt trip (abortion is murder, you know) on the woman.

PS....after she had her abortion, the woman continued to visit the agency where I worked for various and sundry types of assistance. I was cordial to her and neither her abortion nor her complaint were ever mentioned.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I used the "Rape Card" because one of the cases that made the news recently had to do with a pharmacist who refused to dispense "Plan B" or to refer the rape victim to a pharmacist to dispense "Plan B" even though the store he worked for required it.

[Carlene 12]

I used the "Rape Card" because one of the cases that made the news recently had to do with a pharmacist who refused to dispense "Plan B" or to refer the rape victim to a pharmacist to dispense "Plan B" even though the store he worked for required it.

I have serious doubts about this scenario. As I said before, a woman who seeks medical attention for rape (or to have a RX written for the "morning after" pill, is VERY unlikely to become pregnant, due to the nature of the exam itself, and the routine D&C.

Here is some pregnancy-via-rape info for you to chew on....

In the only large-scale study of pregnant rape victims ever conducted, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that approximately 80 percent chose against abortion

1. Mahkorn, "Pregnancy and Sexual Assault," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall and Watts (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) 55-69.

2. Maloof, "The Consequences of Incest: Giving and Taking Life" The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall and Watts (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) 84-85.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I have serious doubts about this scenario. As I said before, a woman who seeks medical attention for rape (or to have a RX written for the "morning after" pill, is VERY unlikely to become pregnant, due to the nature of the exam itself, and the routine D&C.

Here is some pregnancy-via-rape info for you to chew on....

In the only large-scale study of pregnant rape victims ever conducted, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that approximately 80 percent chose against abortion

1. Mahkorn, "Pregnancy and Sexual Assault," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall and Watts (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) 55-69.

2. Maloof, "The Consequences of Incest: Giving and Taking Life" The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall and Watts (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) 84-85.

It doesn't matter what the chances are. If a woman is raped and she wants to be sure that she will not have to be the mother of a child by rape, what right does a pharmacist have to say "NO"? And if the chance is so small to be pregnant via rape, what grounds does the pharmacist have? Aborting a non-existent fetus is against his moral principles?

Let the pharmacist work in his own store if he wants to refuse to dispense prescriptions. If he works for someone else, he should follow the company's rules as long as they legal rules.

[Carlene 12]

Let the pharmacist work in his own store if he wants to refuse to dispense prescriptions. If he works for someone else, he should follow the company's rules as long as they legal rules.

The Arizona pharmacist (Target) WAS following the "company's rules". In fact, most states specifically exempt licensed pharmacists from having to perform any duty which conflicts with their personal or religious beliefs.

Your friendly druggist may also, by the way, refuse to fill your RX for any drug that might harmfully react with other drugs you might be taking, or a drug which he has reason to believe you might abuse.

I have purchased hypodermic needles at local pharmacies without a prescription (they do not require one in Texas), and have been refused syringes at another pharmacy (cited "store policy"). One pharmacy will sell insulin or "allergy" syringes over the counter, but not the bigger ones ( I needed 21 guage, 1 1/2 inch syringes). Should I have alerted the newspapers that my civil rights were being violated?

I personally think the so-called "morning after" BC pill should be available over the counter.

[BJean 16]

Carlene I think the reason we won't see the morning after pill sold over the counter anytime soon is because of the potential side effects, although I do not know that for a fact. Do you know anything about the side effects?

[Carlene 12]

Carlene I think the reason we won't see the morning after pill sold over the counter anytime soon is because of the potential side effects, although I do not know that for a fact. Do you know anything about the side effects?

No, but as the mother of 4 (and grandmother of 10) I am well acquainted with the side effects, should you fail to use it. :biggrin1: