Homosexual Liberal Atheists ~ What's UP with that?

[green 6]

While religion can be such a comfort, it also has been the cause of so much grief and suffering.

Why can't people just let other people live and worship as they want?

The world would be a much better place if people just stopped getting outraged just because another person doesn't believe the way they do.

Those are civilized words. Amen to all of the above.

[AshevilleEddie 14]

BJean, you asked for it, so here it is!

I can speak from both personal experience and first hand knowledge of others on the Nature vs. Nurture thing. My earliest childhood memories are from about age 3 1/2 and even at that age I knew that I was somehow different. By 6 or so, I knew that I liked taking a bath with my best friend, and it wasn't because we played with toy sailboats in the tub! Of course at that age there was no overt sexual connotation. By 9 or 10 (about the time that most kids start to have some understanding of sex) I knew what it was that made me different. It was very difficult to grow up Gay in the South, especially in a very religious community. One of my sisters was (and still is) married to a Baptist pastor, the other was very involved in her (Southern Baptist) church. Oddly enough, my brother was the most accepting. My mother said she always knew but just didn't want to admit it, because she thought it was "her fault." My dad simply didn't want to know anything. Although I had always tried to suppress my true feelings, after becoming a Christian at age 16, I began to try and seek assistance from others in an attempt to be Str8. For almost two decades I tried everything. Secular counseling, pastoral counseling, sex therapy, prayer, fasting, you name it I tried it. The sex therapist I saw went so far as to put me through aversion therapy. This consisted of two things; First, if I was at home, I had to keep ammonia and cotton balls handy. If I had a "homosexual thought" I had to douse a cotton ball with the ammonia and inhale as deeply as I could, over and over until the thoughts went away. Second, If I was away from home, I had to wear a rubber band around my wrist, and every time I had one of those "homosexual thoughts" I had to snap the rubber band on my wrist as hard as I could.

I also spent several months living on the base of a conservative Christian youth organization. I was expected (though in all fairness not forced) to share every intimate detail of my life, including thoughts and feelings, as well as actions. Of course masturbation was a sin, so if I did it I "confessed" and was given "consequences" (usually bible verses to memorize, and sometimes extra chores). And those homosexual thoughts? Well, that usually amounted to having to memorize entire chapters of the bible, then write what amounted to essays about what I'd read plus those lovely extra chores.

I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point. I did all those things willingly and sincerely. I honestly wanted to change. But the more I tried (or didn't try, just "let go and let God") the more depressed and despondant I became. Ultimately, the faith that had been so strong for so long simply vanished. I literally wanted to die. The only thing that kept me from doing the deed was my children. And it was as much for my children as for myself that I finally decided to stop trying to live a false life. My faith never did come back as strongly as it had once been. After everything I had been put through by so-called Christians and being asked to leave two churches simply for being Gay, I sorta gave up on organized religion. And while I do still identify as Christian, I now have more questions than answers. But at least I am now living an honest, truthful life. I don't wear my orientation on my sleeve, but I don't lie about who I am either. I'm just me.

Now at the beginning of this soliloquy, I stated that I was also drawing on the experiences of others, as well as my own. I know countless other GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual & Transgendered) people whose stories are in every way except the exact details just like mine. As for those who say that have successfully changed their orientation, I believe with all my heart that while they may be sincere in that belief, they are only deluding themselves and in time they will either come to realize that or die very unhappy and unfulfilled. EVERY person I have ever known that has had the misfortune of being a part of an ex-gay ministry (oh, I forgot to mention that I did that too) has ultimately come to realize who they truly are.

So to wrap up this extremely long post, there is no doubt in my mind that where sexual orientation is concerned, every human being is born with a genetic destiny that (while repressible and hideable) is inerrant and unchangeable.

JMHO...

[marjon9 6]

MsDad, your post is much appreciated. Unfortunately, that type of testimony does not seem to be enough to change or enlighten any minds. Certain types of conservative religious folks read that, and could read the same from thousands of others, and yet still come away from the experience feeling like they know better because a) the Bible says so, and they know 2 people who swear they were "cured."

I'm convinced that the best chance there is for enlightenment in this area comes from people like you who tell their stories. I think this is the best chance to break through the rhetoric and make a human connection in a way that allows people to understand. And in fairness, I do believe there has been some progress in recent years, both socially and legally. In another 20 or 50 years, there should be a sea change on the whole issue.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to share your experience.

[anonemouse 1]

MsDad, your post is much appreciated. Unfortunately, that type of testimony does not seem to be enough to change or enlighten any minds. Certain types of conservative religious folks read that, and could read the same from thousands of others, and yet still come away from the experience feeling like they know better because a) the Bible says so, and they know 2 people who swear they were "cured."

I'm convinced that the best chance there is for enlightenment in this area comes from people like you who tell their stories. I think this is the best chance to break through the rhetoric and make a human connection in a way that allows people to understand. And in fairness, I do believe there has been some progress in recent years, both socially and legally. In another 20 or 50 years, there should be a sea change on the whole issue.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to share your experience.

I honestly believe that in a generation or two, gay rights will be viewed in the same way as we view racial minority rights today. Our kids and grandkids will look back on today's world, and wonder about the multitude of absolute bigots that were able to squash the rights of an entire group of people, and were able to defend and excuse their behavior and beliefs by saying that "it's what God would have wanted" or "that's the way the Bible says it should be". I just wish I lived in that time.

[BJean 16]

Eddie you are my hero for taking the time to post your story. There is no question who is the more credible source of information here... you are!

I really hate that we have been witness to so much discrimination against gay people during my lifetime. I am like laurend and hope that one day we will all look back at this and be astonished that we were so friggin' stupid and hurtful.

Thank God that you have found someone you love and who loves you and that you are able to live together today. When I was young, you probably wouldn't have been able to walk down the street together without suffering some injustice. Today you can go to at least some states and be married. It gives me some hope that things are going to keep improving. We must keep up the fight against discrimination and wacko religious extremists!

[BJean 16]

P.S. Thank you, Eddie. And thanks to Marjon9 and laurend for their caring and thoughtful posts in support of yours.

[BJean 16]

airwayman: You are SO right on!!

[Wheetsin 714]

Sexuality is nature. The idea that it's something to be changed or hidden is nurture. Poor nurture. Laurend - my husband and I had that exact conversation Monday or Tuesday on our way to work (our buildings are just a few minutes apart so we ride together). I was drawing the parallel that at one time, people would not have believed that interracial relationships would be an everyday sight -- and how long will it take before our descendents say the same thing about same sex relationships, and how stupid and ignorant will we look to them, for even daring to protest it... because at some point, the mere idea of trying to deny equal rights based on sexual orientation will be unfathomable (and not just disgusting, like it is today).

[Wheetsin 714]

Oh yeah, I can't edit, so "imo" to your heart's content.

[green 6]

MsDad, your account is identical to those of all my other gay friends. Thank you for posting it.

[anonemouse 1]

As for those who say that have successfully changed their orientation, I believe with all my heart that while they may be sincere in that belief, they are only deluding themselves and in time they will either come to realize that or die very unhappy and unfulfilled. EVERY person I have ever known that has had the misfortune of being a part of an ex-gay ministry (oh, I forgot to mention that I did that too) has ultimately come to realize who they truly are.

I definitely agree. I firmly believe that either all these so-called "ex-gays" are either lying to themselves and the people around them, or they were never gay in the first place. In which case, they are still lying to themselves and the people around them.

[airwayman 2]

Of course masturbation was a sin, so if I did it I "confessed" and was given "consequences"

Hey Eddie, I had the same thing happen to me when I was young. My mom opened the bathroom door one time and caught me in the act of chokin' my chicken. She was shocked, gasped and said "Johnnie, quit that or you'll go blind!!!" I said "aw gee mom, can't I just do it 'til I need glasses?"

[anonemouse 1]

The sex therapist I saw went so far as to put me through aversion therapy. This consisted of two things; First, if I was at home, I had to keep ammonia and cotton balls handy. If I had a "homosexual thought" I had to douse a cotton ball with the ammonia and inhale as deeply as I could, over and over until the thoughts went away. Second, If I was away from home, I had to wear a rubber band around my wrist, and every time I had one of those "homosexual thoughts" I had to snap the rubber band on my wrist as hard as I could.

That's horrid. The rubber band is one thing, but making you inhale ammonia? That's cruel, and I can't believe anyone would really think they were helping you by making you do it. God, we have some real pieces of work in this nation, don't we? It's absolutely mind-blowing to me that someone can encourage that crap and then think they are "rightous" and "God-like". I don't understand how people can be so cruel. I mean, I am literally on the edge of tears, here. I just don't understand how people can act like that and believe that that they are the ones that are going to Heaven. It's torture.

[airwayman 2]

how long will it take before our descendents say the same thing about same sex relationships, and how stupid and ignorant will we look to them, for even daring to protest it... because at some point, the mere idea of trying to deny equal rights based on sexual orientation will be unfathomable

People in the U.S.A. have done some pretty stupid things in the past few hundred years. Take the poor American Indians. Talk about an injustice, we justified killing a goodly number of them and putting the leftovers on reservations because we labeled them "savages." Don't want to kill a native american, fine, we'll just call them "savages" and there's your justification. Slaves? What's wrong with having a slave? Let's go to war against our brothers up north for the right to sell human beings into bondage. Okay, okay, the North won so no more slaves but, by God, them black folk gotta have their own drinkin' fountain, sit in the balcony at the picture show and give up their seat to a white person on the bus. And we don't want no black man playing golf at the country club...it's a gentlemen's sport. The blacks can just be caddies. Now we move on to gay rights. Why should we give a "domestic partner" health insurance after all he/she is a queer! They don't deserve health insurance or survivor's benefits.....and no dental insurance either. Cost too much to insure "them kind of people."

Stupid, stupid, stupid. You all are right, someday we'll look back and shake our collective heads at the way gays are treated. It's like I tell my wife....homosexuality is not a disease and it doesn't respond to antibiotics.

[Carlene 12]

Of course masturbation was a sin, so if I did it I "confessed" and was given "consequences"

Hey Eddie, I had the same thing happen to me when I was young. My mom opened the bathroom door one time and caught me in the act of chokin' my chicken. She was shocked, gasped and said "Johnnie, quit that or you'll go blind!!!" I said "aw gee mom, can't I just do it 'til I need glasses?"

I have three sons, all raised to be good Catholic boys...LOL

My rule was "thou shalt not masturbate", but you should take a shower every day, and you can wash it as fast as you want to.