Homosexual Liberal Atheists ~ What's UP with that?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Maybe it just means that when wives leave the house, guys watch a LOT of porn. Come to think of it.....your wife has been gone for several days now, hasn't she?:speechles

:boy_hug::mad:

[anonemouse 1]

Religion is MANmade. Spirituality is totally different.

What I was attempting to say (not very well, but still), is that most organized religion today is not about faith or spirituality. In most cases, it isn't about worshiping a higher power, helping the less fortunate, and being the best person you can be. It's about money, public standing, and doing what you were trained to do. And I doubt anyone can deny that that isn't what the original founders planned on.

[synicalchick 0]

I totally agree and this thread has become a really GREAT thread.

What I was attempting to say (not very well, but still), is that most organized religion today is not about faith or spirituality. In most cases, it isn't about worshiping a higher power, helping the less fortunate, and being the best person you can be. It's about money, public standing, and doing what you were trained to do. And I doubt anyone can deny that that isn't what the original founders planned on.

[QTkidsmom 0]

Right, you vote according to your bible. You know, that book that is based on NOT fact, but myth. You happen to believe that myth is true. Unless you have something to back up that myth with facts, you are no different from the rest of the 2000 years worth of Christianity.

But what you are doing is insisting others live according to beliefs you can't begin to defend.

Let me ask you something, what if another religion takes over the US. It is going to happen, there is no way around that. If stats continue as they are there WILL be another religion taking over.

So my questions to you are, do you want to live by THEIR religion vs. your own? No???? Then why in the world would you expect others to live by yours? What is the difference? You are no better than those that want YOU to live by THEIR religion.

Let's not forget that.

You could not be more wrong on numerous points. You call it myth because you do not believe that it is has been adequately proven to your standards. I base my belief on facts. I have had very real experiences. I am not referring to "feelings" as many have suggested, but rather physical evidence. Science tried to explain these events and failed. Truly, you are not interested so I won't waste my time explaining.

You assume you KNOW how I would vote based on the fact that I am a christian. Truth is, you have absolutely no idea. I purposely did not state my political view points because someone, somewhere, that had varying views, would take the position that I somehow was forcing my views on them, simply for stating them. This entire "rant and rave" section is undisputable proof of that. Besides the fact that I do not feel the need to share them. My only point to comment was that the very people who like to pretend to be liberal, open minded and freely accepting of any manner in which a person chooses to live their lives, seem to always be the first to complain about other people's choices.

You seem to miss the point of voting. It is a bunch of individuals making a decision about what is important to them, individually. If the option was offered on a ballot to make it illegal for space aliens to enter the solar system, some people would vote in favor of this action. There are people who believe that space aliens exist, this would be an important issue on their ballot. They would base their decision on whether or not they felt having space aliens in the solar system was a problem, a benefit or a nutural subject. Would we reasonably be able to enforce such a law? Probably not, however, that would not be a factor to everyone's decision. Bottomline, when the votes are tallied, the one with the most votes wins, for the most part. Sometimes the votes go in favor of your particular views, sometimes they don't. Sorry, that's life.

To address the question of how I would feel about another religion "taking over the country", more power to 'em. They could never control my belief. I honestly don't believe that any one group is in control of the country now. Simply because there is a law that disagrees with my beliefs, it won't change my mind. I still know what I know. Nobody can undo the events that I have witnessed personally, that prove to me the existance of God and the truths of the bible.

Can you honestly prove that there isn't a God? No, it is your understanding. If you can't, you are no different than any other atheist I have met.

[BJean 16]

lethea g: That is a beautiful story about your experiences within your church! It sounds like you are surrounded by many good, loving people. I am sure that they are thankful that you are in their lives as well.

I completely agree that it can be a very personal thing to attend church and worship God. That was one of the things I appreciated so much in the Catholic Church. It was a very spiritual setting compared to the other churches I had been a member of earlier in my life (Methodist, First Christian and Southern Baptist, which were all much more social than spiritual.)

I love to witness churches that actually go out into the community and help others with their work, time and money, like yours does.

Too many churches collect money and use it to build bigger churches, buy more elaborate pews and more expensive choir robes. My Dad used to rail about our church always raising money for a bigger and more elaborate church. He thought the money should go to helping people in need. Our large church already sat vacant almost all of 6 days out of 7. That was an enormously expensive bit of real estate to maintain just to have it sit there not being used, when there were people in our community who were destitute without electricity and running Water. I saw his point.

It is very heart warming to learn what a great personal relationship you share with the other members of your church. I am very happy for you.

[anonemouse 1]

Leatha_g, I think that's great. But I can't help but feel that your experience is the exception to the rule. Judging from my own personal experiences and from my observation of the churches and people around me, your experience is an exceptional one. Like BJean said, many church congregations focus on making bigger and better houses of worship. Many members are willing to give money to those in need, but are not willing to give their time or assistance to them. To me, that's being concerned with how they look to other people, instead of being concerned with the people they should be helping.

[AshevilleEddie 14]

Wow! I'm a new member - just joined tonight - I wound up sitting here reading through most of this thread. I gotta say, there are a lot of strong opinions on both sides. But unless I missed them, I haven't actually seen any posts from Gay or Lesbian folks. So here I am, in all my fabulous gayness! Just kidding! Well, sorta. I really am Gay, but hardly fabulous. I'm just an average, 40-something, divorced fat man raising two teenagers with my DH. For the record, he's also an average, 40-something fat man (although he was banded on 2/21/07 so he's not quite as fat now :mad: ). I am also (gasp!) a born-again Christian. As such, I struggled with my orientation (not preference, that's a load of crap) until my early 30s, when I finally realized that God made me who I am and that was good enough for me. I DID NOT choose to be Gay (who would want to be hated that much?), nor did I "give in to my sinful urges." I've always known I was Gay, even as a small child. Of course at that age, I didn't actually understand that I was Gay, just that I was different.

Anyway, the reason I replied to this thread is not to further stir things up, but to let everyone know that there are actually folks like me out there that not only understand, but live both sides of this topic. It is very disurbing to me that people won't just stop bashing each other and let others have their own views and beliefs, rather than trying to force theirs on everyone else.

I'm sure I'll get flak from a lot of folks on here, but I just felt I needed to get that off my chest (along with 30 or 40 pounds after I'm banded :biggrin1: )...

[BJean 16]

laurend: I have no idea what the stats are and I believe they would be difficult to get. But my experiences tell me that while there are many churches that do very good work and that are not governed by greed and power, there are many churches that have become so obsessed with their power, they do not practice the basic teachings of Jesus.

Some of them may not have physical churches but there are many televangelists who bear this out. In fact, I would probably venture to say that all televangelists are obsessed with material things and power.

They are quite different from a church that is supported by, and for the most part run by, the people in the community it serves, presumably as in the case of lethea g's church.

[QTkidsmom 0]

I used to say this too, when I wasn't involved directly. I have no money. I have no public standing. No one even knows me in this town and I was never taken to church as a child.

My church constantly has missions going on all over the world. Latvia, South Africa are two that come to mind that were completed this past summer. I have a friend leaving in a group on Monday to go to Russia and work with children in an orphanage. I helped pay one of the travelers way, since I couldn't go myself. I also sent a special gift to the young ladies of the orphanage. I just sent my mom money over the internet because she barely had enough money to cover her medications. We opened our church doors and housed and clothed over 200 Katrina victims this past year and helped many of them get medical care and find local housing and jobs. And I am SOO grateful for the guys from my Sunday school class who came to mow last week and who will be here tomorrow to help dig up a leak in my front yard.

It is easy to make observations, especially if you've ever felt left out or been offended by one experience. I used to go on about the church being hypocritical and all about appearances, but the truth is that is not what you even go there for. If your heart is there to learn about and worship God, what everyone else is doing shouldn't even matter.

The problem then, was me. Not them.

I love my church, even though I can't do all the things I would love to do. I can tell you that living away from my real family, these people have truly been Godsends to me.

PS. None of these things are going to get me to Heaven. I have simply learned to love the love that has been shared with me by the people of God and I want to have some of what they have. It feels nice to share the love of God without being concerned about motives or expecting something back. I could have never learned this without 'those people' and the love they have in their hearts for others.

Leatha,

God bless you and your church. This has always been my experience with church. It is easier for people that do not agree with a way of life to point out the negative, they say there are more bad than positive. I say hogwash! It is human nature to focus and dwell in a negative experience. It is harder to accept that there are many people in the world that are truly good and loving, than sticking with a bad perception, apparently. Thank you for sharing with us the good that your church is doing. I will pray for your missionaries.

[BJean 16]

MsDad: Glad to have you aboard. There are only one or two actual bashers here. They are very passionate about certain topics. You need to be aware that this area is labeled Rants and Raves and we all feel free to rave on... and on and on sometimes. It is refreshing to be able to vent and argue and still be friends. After all blest be the tie that binds. The bands being the tie that binds. Pun intended. :mad:

So you didn't ask, but my advice is, don't take any of us too seriously. We really aren't mean, just opinionated and vocal because this is just the forum for it. Besides, we are all probably struggling a little with the fact that we can't turn to food when we get all "het up."

Good luck on your journey to bandland.

P.S. I am glad you settled the question of chance or choice!

[BJean 16]

P.S.S. You are not the only gay person posting at LB Talk. Not the only Born Again either. You might be the only 40-something born again gay man, raising 2 teenagers, whose better half is also 40-something and now sporting a band. I'm not sure about that either though.

[BJean 16]

lethea g: That is simply wonderful! What a huge and important step for you to take in your life. It couldn't have been the easiest thing you ever did, but I know you are so thankful that you took that step.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I don't disagree, but for the sake of argument, "the government" is still "we, the people of the United States". If "we the people" vote to outlaw pornography, not for religious reasons, but because the majority of us feels it victimizes and exploits women, contributes to crime, and has no redeeming social value, why should the minority (losers at the polls) get to call "foul"?

Because if we permit religion to run our country what happens when it isn't Christianity?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Churches can do wonderful things to help people. That is one side of the coin. The other side of the coin is that while they are helping people, they are also enlarging their membership through proselytizing.

I read a few years ago that Russia was one of the prime targets of the US Christian movement and was considered both fertile group and contested ground by the Christian denominations. Of course the churches claim they are going there to help the poor, but they are also helping their membership roles, both short term and more importantly long term. When I read the article, the Mormon church was making huge inroads and was the leading denomination in signing up previously God-less Russians.

I also welcome MsDad, both as a new member and as one with a different perspective, maybe even a more unique (oxymoron) perspective than most. I am always glad to hear new ideas from people with different backgrounds. I am tired of bashing the same old types of members.:mad:

I hope that was taken as the joke it was meant to be.:embarassed: But if not, I will still put my foot into my mouth and state my opinions.

One of those opinions is that even when people are doing their best to do good, they can cause harm. And that goes for both sides of the spectrum. Because a group fights for freedom for another particular group, doesn't mean that group will use that freedom wisely. Just because a person gives to charity, doesn't mean that the charity will be beneficial to its intended recipients. And just because someone feels like they have made a difference, doesn't mean that the difference was for the best.

Big churches can be overpowering, but small churches which are part of a large denomination can also be dominating, but by doing things in a smaller way, they may appear more benevolent. Of course, it is human nature (the good side) to believe that you vote and do things for your values which are moral. But there is a certain immorality in forcing your moral values on to others even if you believe that it is for their own good. I do not know of any decent person that can totally help themselves from doing it, myself included. There is however, another side to human nature (the dark side) which manifests itself in trying to change other people's values for their own benefit while pretending to be doing it for them and worst of all are the ones who trick people, from the good side, into helping them change values for others while having them believe that they are doing it for people who are the targets of change. These manipulators are the Satans of our society, while often thought of as the most reverent.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

You could not be more wrong on numerous points. You call it myth because you do not believe that it is has been adequately proven to your standards. I base my belief on facts. I have had very real experiences. I am not referring to "feelings" as many have suggested, but rather physical evidence. Science tried to explain these events and failed. Truly, you are not interested so I won't waste my time explaining.

Like it or not, your belief is just that. A belief. That's why you have faith. Your God has not been proven to exist so it is not a fact, it's a belief. There is nothing wrong with beliefs, nothing at all. But it simply isn't the same as a fact.

You assume you KNOW how I would vote based on the fact that I am a christian. Truth is, you have absolutely no idea. I purposely did not state my political view points because someone, somewhere, that had varying views, would take the position that I somehow was forcing my views on them, simply for stating them. This entire "rant and rave" section is undisputable proof of that. Besides the fact that I do not feel the need to share them. My only point to comment was that the very people who like to pretend to be liberal, open minded and freely accepting of any manner in which a person chooses to live their lives, seem to always be the first to complain about other people's choices.

That's a cop out. I'm looking at the bigger picture here. Christians attempt to put their beliefs into law. That is simply morally wrong. If you don't want to be gay, don't. But you don't have a moral right to tell another they can't be gay. (you means general you, not specific you) When you are putting your religious beliefs into law don't come complaining when Christianity is no longer the majority religion in the US. When you are forced legally to live by the beliefs of the new majority, just remember that we have the Christians to thank for setting a precedent.

To address the question of how I would feel about another religion "taking over the country", more power to 'em. They could never control my belief.

You are missing the point. The point isn't whether or not someone can control your beliefs but they could control your actions.

Can you honestly prove that there isn't a God? No, it is your understanding. If you can't, you are no different than any other atheist I have met. precedent.

I have little reason to disprove your God. It isn't my claim he exists. If I tell you that there really are pink flying elephants is it my job to defend my claims or is it your job to disprove me? I'm referring to simple debate rules here, nothing more.