Homosexual Liberal Atheists ~ What's UP with that?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Do a Google search on Diebold. There are a LOT of verrry biased sites out there pushing an anti-Bush agenda. But there are some sites that really to attempt to be as objective as possible. You might be surprised at what you read.

I have been looking for a link I have that lists tons of details about election equipment and I can't find it. When I first saw it I thought it was another biased anti-Bush'er but I was able to verify most of it, the others I couldn't determine one way or another if it was factual.

Don't get me wrong, you can't get much more anti-Bush than me but I still want to read the objective stuff and I'll form my own opinions on any given topic. That doesn't happen with biased material. This link blew me away. I'll still continue looking for it.

Get hold of the HBO documentary: "Hacking Democracy".

Go to HBO's website and search for "Hacking Democracy".

Al Gore got minus 16,022 votes in one county in Florida in the 2000 presidential election.

[BJean 16]

Bubble I too find it very disheartening that we can't fully rely on our media to report the news. Everyone seems to have a bias and it shines through like a freight train's headlamp! And just as frightening.

TOM: I got one word for you: hurricanes. We have friends with a beautiful home just south of Tampa on Manatee River that they bought when he retired. They aren't in an area that floods easily, but every year since they've been there, they've had to worry about a direct hit from a hurricane. They're looking to sell their home and second business. So far no luck. A few years ago, that would have been an unheard of situation. They plan to move to high and dry parts of Texas, if they can get buyers interested in taking their chances with Mother Nature.

[Carlene 12]

Canada's too dang cold, but I might consider Mexico. Here's an e mail I received today from the son of someone who retired South of the border.

Hello to All,

Well since it appears I was the first family or friend visitor to Dad’s place I thought I would give my perspective.

I drove and took the kids since they don’t have their passports. (you can still go to Mexico without a passport as long as it’s driving) You can only drive until January 23rd of 2008. Then you will need a password to even do that.

We left Fort Worth at 6:05 am on Saturday the 10th and arrived in Laredo at 1:30 pm with three short stops for gas, food or potty breaks. That leg of the trip was 450 miles. We got our dollars exchanged at one of the “Casa de Cambio” locations which are all over Laredo and the border and headed over to the “Aduana” (customs) to get our vehicle sticker and visas. The Visas were no problem and only took about 30 minutes with the lines. Then I hit a snag. Well, it was more like a concrete wall. I read several articles about crossing the border and what to bring or take and got instructions from Dad but everyone failed to mention one little tiny fact. You MUST have proof of vehicle ownership or they will not issue the “import permit”. I tried to convince them that I could fax it but they wanted either the original registration or title. I thought about having it overnighted but it was Saturday and there is no overnight service on Sunday. A U.S. Custom’s agent suggested that I go to the local county court house and have them give me a copy from my VIN number but they did not open until 8 am on Monday. I figured I wouldn’t be able to get my copy and get back to the Aduana before 9 am so I did not want to do that. The reason why was because every article I read said DON’T drive in Mexico at night and it was a 12 hour drive from Laredo.

So………… at 5pm on Saturday I began my drive BACK to Fort Worth. I got as far as Temple at Midnight and got a hotel. We got up at 7 on Sunday and arrived back in Ft. Worth at 11 am. We got a quick Sandwich, the title to the car and registration and headed back to Laredo. We arrived in Laredo at 7pm, went across the border, got our sticker in 15 minutes, drove back over to Laredo, got a hotel and was in bed by 10pm. So what if it was a NINE HUNDRED mile Detour. My odometer was now at 1350 miles for the trip.

Monday morning- We got up at 5am, went through customs with my shiny new sticker and were headed south by 6:00 am. It was a long, long drive and I could definitely understand why everyone says don’t drive at night. (bad drivers and lots and lots of roadside grazing by mules, horses and goats) We arrived in Ajijic at 6:30 p.m. and another 700 miles under our belt. (new total was 2050 miles)

Dad had a nice dinner ready for us. We got a tour of the casa and played with Angelina and the dog and then hit the sack around 9:30 am. The house has no heat or A/C but it always seemed to be within 5 degrees of 70 any time of the day or night inside.

Tuesday morning- Angelina’s alarm when off at 6:30 am, (she still has school) playing at no less than volume level 10 blaring out musica Mexicana. It sounded like a Mariachi band was playing in the next room. Of course she had to bring the dog it to wake everyone up so, so much for sleeping in on vacation. We drove her to school and got a nice tour of downtown Ajijic. It’s really cool and looks like a classic small Mexican village except more than half of the signage is in English.

After we dropped her off we had Breakfast at one of Dad’s favorite spots called Salvador’s. We ate outside on the patio and had a full Breakfast with fresh OJ, coffee, eggs, every kind of breakfast meat and pancakes. Total bill for 4 was about $15 U.S. (this was at the expensive place) We had lunch at another café and sat outside on the patio again. All the waiters during the trip were bilingual. We asked them to speak Spanish to Dad, Jared and me and English to Alexandra since she has not yet taken Spanish.

After lunch I took the kids Horseback riding by the lake. I was robbed for $7.50 a person for an hour each. Plus they threw in a guide. When dinner rolled around Dad took us to a BBQ/Fish and chips place owned by a guy from England. He was quite entertaining and informative about the culture since he had been in Mexico for over 12 years. He asked what I thought about the weather and I said, “don’t you get bored with the same great weather everyday?” I added, you don’t get to ask someone, “how about this weather?”. His reply was, “it gives you more time to talk about other things.”

Wednesday – We had breakfast at the “cheap place” and again we ate outdoors. Breakfast was $14. I took my car to a local body shop. I had a bumper cover that was hit back in the states and there was a small hole and large dent. I left it there and they started right away. I continued my training for a half marathon I’m running next month and ran 5 miles. It was tough because I just ate breakfast and the altitude was a killer. It’s 5,000 foot elevation there so it’s basically like being in Denver next to the equator. You also tan quicker because you’re a MILE closer to the sun.

Dad took us to the local Wednesday street market where you can buy everything from extension cords to fruits, vegetables and meat, bootleg DVDs, clothes and house wares. Dad was proud of his $3 Ironing board and Jared bought a Rolex for $30, Alex bought some basic souvenirs, I bought Elizabeth some lingerie and for myself a copy of Jackass # DOS (which was in English) and Forest Gump which was in Spanish. This is a great way to learn Spanish if you’ve seen the movie as many times as we have and know all the lines, you can learn how it’s said in Spanish. Run, Forest, Run is Corre, Forest, Corre and Stupid is as Stupid does is Estúpido es como estúpido hace. Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you’re gonna get, translates to La vida está como una caja de bombones, usted nunca sabe lo que usted obtendrá. I was a little disappointed that Bubba’s name was pronounced “booba” but Lieutenant Dan was the same except with an accent.

We picked up Angelina after school and took her to her tutoring lesson in Chapala. Here I dropped off a couple of belts I wanted resized at the neighborhood shoe repair shop and they took me down for $2.00 a piece. In the states I got an estimate for one at $8. Jared had a couple of links taken out of his “Rolex” and they hammered him for $1.20 while we waited. (how does Dad afford living down here?)

We ate dinner at a “Tex-Mex” place. We were inside this time but the front doors were wide open and there was a slight breeze coming off the lake so it was almost like being outside. Again I had to remind our waiter that we wanted to communicate in Spanish.

After being here for two days, I came to an interesting observation. It’s a lot like being in the states except the weather is perfect everyday. The restaurants are packed with American’s or Canadians and it’s all Mexican’s waiting on them. All you hear is English conversations. It’s like it’s a retirement community except the old farts have free reign over the whole town. The only reason I didn’t stand out is because I have a lot of gray hair. It was interesting to note that Dad constantly referred to everyone else as “these old F%*#ers.”

Thursday- A friend of mine’s Dad lives in Ajijic as well and I delivered a bunch of mail to him and picked up some Tequila to take back home while we had breakfast on the patio again. Picked up my car from the body shop and it was beautiful. It was an excellent repair job in 24 hours and all for the low, low price of $115. In the states I’m sure it would have been $500-600 and the wait would have easily been a week. They also washed the previous 2,000 miles off the car so it was sparkling clean. We went to a liquor store and I bought some high end Tequila which in the US cost about $50 per bottle. Down there it was $35 AND they had a special that week at two for one!

Because Ajijic is in the state of Jalisco where they make most of the Tequila there is an abundance of brands. The liquor store had one long isle with Tequila from top to bottom on both sides. I took the kids for another horseback ride and then it was time to get Angelina. We picked her up at 2:30 and went to Dad’s Tennis and Racket club. It’s a beautiful resort on the side of a mountain in an exclusive community with a view of the 55 mile long Lake Chapala. They beat him up for $60 a year to belong. That gives him access to the dozen or so Tennis courts (which were completely empty) the warm mineral Water filled pool, (there were only 5 or 6 people there) exercise room, volleyball, basketball, playground, pool table and snack bar. We stayed for about an hour and a half and then headed to Chapala to pick up my belts which were ready and correctly sized. We then had tacos de bistek from a street vendor. This may have been the kid’s favorite meal. This was the Mexican equivalent of a hot dog vendor’s cart. He made them in front of you and they were delicious. We just sat on a park bench because it was getting upwards of 83 degrees but a nice shade tree cut that back to about 75. Nice. We ate 15 of them for about $7 which included 3 cokes. I spoke all Spanish to him and all his replies were in English. It was kind of funny. He told me in English, “you speak good Spanish.”

We got home and did our final packing for the drive back home. (I wanted to squeeze in a round of golf at the Chula Vista country club since it was only TWELVE dollars but just could not make the time due to the extra day’s drive to get my vehicle ownership.

Friday- got up at 5 am and was out the door at 5:45. We hit Guadalajara at dawn and it was home free from there. Near San Luis Potosi there was construction and no signs on how to get back on the road you were on so I followed what signs I could until I realized I had taken a 30 mile detour. So we drove 30 miles back the other way and continued our journey. (now I know you’re thinking, hey dumbass, didn’t you have a clue that the sun was on the other side of you? No, it was about noon so it looked the same) In spite of this 45 minute delay we still made it to the border in 12 and a half hours so we made good time.

Gas and tolls cost you about $180 each way. Tolls really add up but I do not recommend taking the free roads. They just are not as well built or maintained. I was feeling pretty good after reaching Laredo in 12.5 hours and decided to make the following day’s drive a little easier. We gassed up, got a Whataburger and continued on to San Antonio and got a hotel on the south side. We pulled in about 10 pm. Got up on Saturday morning around 9am and got home at 3pm. Total mileage including the 900 mile detour……3250. Just for grins I checked mapquest and it turns out I could have driven from Fort Worth to New York City and back. But hey, it beats working.

Dad/Dan was an excellent host/taxi/guide. Go see him. I’m flying next time……..

I’ll send a few photos when I can.

Dave

[BJean 16]

Carlene: The description of the weather reminds me of much of the year in the high desert in Arizona. It really is ideal because it is so dry. You do have to adjust to using cocoa butter body lotion - most lotions just don't hydrate you enough.

I think I'll still go for Canada if I have a choice. I like their politics better. I don't speak Spanish, and I'm happier near mountains than being closer to the tropics. Although we did spend some time near the Mexican Baja penninsula and it was very beautiful there. If we hadn't been so afraid of the cannibals that we'd heard about living a few miles out in the desert, we would have more fun on our camp out. We wound up trading some of our kids clothes for some of their beautiful wooden carved animals.

[QTkidsmom 0]

Just chimming in to once again point out that sterotypes and blanket statements are ignorant and prejudice. Regardless of the subject. This goes for blanket statements regarding homosexuality, gender, religous belief (or lack of), whatever....I have attended more than one church in my lifetime and have NEVER experienced the guided or suggested voting that is mentioned here.(BTW, I am not deaf, blind, naive or stupid.) In fact, every pastor I have ever called my own is clear to point out to the church that views are diverse and that church is not the place for these discussions. My pastor will not even share with you his party affliation or voting opinion if you asked. I know, because I did ask. You may find that ignorant of me, however, when I was conflicted about a particular issue, I sought the advice of my pastor as a trusted advisor. My family is very close to his, and normally he provides any advice requested, however, he will not participate in political discussions or give opinions on the agendas.

I believe that you are wrong to assume that people are drones and voting as instructed. As a Christian, I vote in the manner that my conscience guides, based on my own understandings. Christians are no different than anyone else in that regard. There are people from all walks of life that will do their research, seek the advice of trusted advisors, will discuss the issues with family and friends and will ultimately make the decision that suits their beliefs, regardless of what they are. There are also people from all walks of life that will vote as they are told...either by a friend, family, employer, the media, clubs that they belong to, or their religious advisor.

You can challenge me on that but then I will ask that you look deeper into your own decission making process when planning to vote. Do you not look at how the candidate stands on issues important to you? Do you not confirm that their views are not opposed to yours on the issues of highest priority for whatever group you belong to? Examples I would point out, if you are homosexual, would you vote for a person opposed to the issues affecting your group? Would you vote to pass a law to ban gay marriage? If you are pro-choice do you vote to pass laws that would eliminate abortions rights? Would you vote a person into office that promises to end abortion? You may based on other factors that you weigh more heavily but not likely, right? The same goes for a Christians. Most will vote for the person or law that best fits our views and opinions, just like everyone else....or at least like everyone else should.

To make the statement that Christians (all or majority or exclusively) are impressed upon, forced, or swayed to vote a particular way is ignorant.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

There are people from all walks of life that will do their research, seek the advice of trusted advisors, will discuss the issues with family and friends and will ultimately make the decision that suits their beliefs, regardless of what they are.

Sooooooooooooo, you do vote according to what your church teaches vs. allowing people to live their own lives???

Just asking.

[QTkidsmom 0]

As I said, I vote my conscience, based on the issue. A vote is sometimes a selfish thing...for EVERYONE. The issues that earn my vote are the ones with the greatest promise of leading to the outcomes that are important to me and my family. I can't tell you where the votes will fall in every direction on my ballot. I am have no problem voting against my party if the better choice is for the other party. There is no way to please everyone and to try would only exhaust a person. That is why I say that a vote is sometimes a selfish thing. The only thing that I can promise is that the votes cast on my ballot will be the ones that are important to me.

[QTkidsmom 0]

Sooooooooooooo, you do vote according to what your church teaches vs. allowing people to live their own lives???

Just asking.

Just a little point I would like to make for clarity....my church teaches the Bible. As a thinking person, I believe that I am responsible for testing what I am taught in any area of my life, with my own research. So, I read the bible to test what I am taught. Isn't that how most people learn any subject? I guess what I am trying to say is that I attend my church and participate because the teachings are well with me. I am not hurded into my church, forced to attend, held against my will. I am there because I agree with the teachings. If ever I am in conflict with the sermon, I question the pastor. He expects that from all the members of the church. Some do follow on blind faith, again just like any other group from all walks of life, this sometimes happens.

Just thought that it might be necessary to point that out.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

But the fact still remains, you vote according to what you are taught in church. Each person living their life according to what is right for THEM is totally beside the point. You ARE attempting to put YOUR religion into law.

It is one thing to say.... I'm gay and I'm living my life as is right for me. You, OTOH, are saying, I am voting so you live life according to my unproven beliefs.

Just admit it and move on.

Religion in politics works well. It is NOT a matter of what is good for another is NOT good for you, it is a matter of what YOU believe other should live by too.

Guess what? It doesn't work.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Just a little point I would like to make for clarity....my church teaches the Bible. As a thinking person, I believe that I am responsible for testing what I am taught in any area of my life, with my own research.

Right, you vote according to your bible. You know, that book that is based on NOT fact, but myth. You happen to believe that myth is true. Unless you have something to back up that myth with facts, you are no different from the rest of the 2000 years worth of Christianity.

But what you are doing is insisting others live according to beliefs you can't begin to defend.

Let me ask you something, what if another religion takes over the US. It is going to happen, there is no way around that. If stats continue as they are there WILL be another religion taking over.

So my questions to you are, do you want to live by THEIR religion vs. your own? No???? Then why in the world would you expect others to live by yours? What is the difference? You are no better than those that want YOU to live by THEIR religion.

Let's not forget that.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

There are three groups in the USA that tend to vote as a block.

One group is the Black people

Another group is the Gay people

And the last group is the Evangelicals

I will not equate the reason for this voting as a Block, but here are

Some Items to ponder:

The vast majority of the first two groups vote Democrat.

The vast majority of the last group votes Republican.

Only a small minority, the so-called base, generally vote in Primaries and those that vote in Primaries tend to be further from the center than the average general election voter.

Many members of the first two groups vote in the Primaries and they vote for the more Liberal candidates.

Many members of the last group vote in the Primaries and they vote for the more Conservative candidates.

The members of the first two groups believe that they are in those groups by nature (rather than nurture). In other words, "they were born that way".

The members of the last group believe that they are in that group by nurture (rather than nature). In other words, "they chose (or learned) to be that way".

Conclusion: I'll leave that up to you (everyone).

[BJean 16]

QTkidsmom: I am impressed that you are a thinking for yourself woman. You are not endoctrinated in any way. You make your decisions based on your own personal beliefs after perhaps talking with your minister outside of church. That's smart. You are very fortunate to attend a church (or more than one churches in your lifetime) where the pastor separates his church from matters of state. Maybe I should say that where you attend church(s) is not a matter of fortune, it is a matter of you choosing a church that separates religious matters from social/policial ones, by your thoughtful consideration. You are not the only person who is so thoughtful and considered in their approach to religion. However you may be from the top of your class in religious education. I am too.

By being from the "top of my class" I know that many churches and ministers are not separating church and political issues. They believe it is their job to address social issues... it is what is expected and what separates (sometimes) one church from another.

Your experiences with church and ministers is quite different from mine. I have never attended a church where they only speak to issues of the Bible. They always have related Biblical passages to issues that people encounter every day of their lives - and many of those days and lives are intertwined with political issues. You named a couple.

There may be some atheists who are saying that church goers are "drones and voting as instructed" but I am not. However, I can assure you that ministers from all kinds of churches absolutely do involve themselves in all areas of people's lives. That's why so many people rely on their pastors for answers and for input when they are voting - in fact, that's part of the reason why people go to church at all - for guidance on the big issues in their lives.

I am amazed frankly at how many people here who say they are Christians are very quick to point out that their particular church and minister does not ever discuss political issues from the pulpit - ever. However, I've never been to one that does not. It is a part of what churches do - they help people with the tough issues of the day. They provide guidance in things that are good and bad in the world. We put our money in the till and go there and expect our preacher to tell us what the church doctrine is on every religious AND social/political problem we are faced with every day.

Some do not preach politics to the extent that they are obvious in their efforts to influence their congregation to vote for a certain issue or person. However, even though you haven't experienced it, many absolutely do!

[Wheetsin 714]

I believe that I am responsible for testing what I am taught in any area of my life, with my own research. So, I read the bible to test what I am taught. Isn't that how most people learn any subject?

I'm specifically leaving the author's name off because I don't want this to be seen as a reply directly to them, because it isn't. But it is using the words.

It would be hard for me to disagree more with the logic above. That's like saying, "Someone told me that all dogs are blue, so I went and read the book titled All Dogs are Blue to test what I was taught, and sure enough - it said that all dogs are blue. Isn't that how most people learn that all dogs are blue?"

If someone had heard all dogs were blue since - well - for their entire lives, in most cases, then they would probably accept that dogs were blue and seek something that would affirm that. At least before the years when we develop critical and differential thinking. And then, by the time they hit those years, they may not be so inclined (or they may - most certainly) because they "just know" that it's true, even if they haven't seen one.

An alternative approach would be to hear that all dogs are blue, and then recognize that you've never seen a blue dog, so you read about all other dogs, and you start watching other dogs and looking for them, maybe even buy a few for yourself. Go rent some dog movies, check out the local AKC club, whatever it took to get some validity to the claim. And maybe you would find one blue dog and say, "Aha!" and maybe you wouldn't, and wonder, "Then what colors are they?"

In other words, if you aren't sure all dogs are blue, you'd go to sources other than All Dogs are Blue to see if this is true.

If you're fairly certain that all dogs are blue, then All Dogs are Blue affirms your thinking and you probably don't have any reason to look farther.

[Wheetsin 714]

There may be some atheists who are saying that church goers are "drones and voting as instructed" but I am not.

I agree with that, I am not either. But I do think that how people interpret their faith largely (if not completely) sets the rest of their value factors, which is going to drive their political persuasion. So indirectly, people vote largely of their faith. Not to be confused with people voting a certain way because someone of a higher ranking in the same faith tells them to.

[BJean 16]

Good point Wheetsin.

My point is, if you attend church every Sunday and your pastor interprets the Bible and relates it to daily activities and preaches to the congregation over and over on how they should live their lives, and preaches over and over about what the doctrine of the church says is right, you're pretty well going to know how your church and how your minister expects you to vote on issues and for people. Some preachers stand up and tell you exactly how he thinks you should vote and some are not so obvious. There may be some exceptions, but one can say generally that people do get voting instructions in church. I am continually amazed at the number of people who say they do not.